Monday, February 26, 2007

Dorian Gray 13-14

125 Comments:

Blogger ZachM said...

I think Wilde could have been saying this in the Preface to try to protect himself against judgement from victorian society.

February 26, 2007 10:54 AM  
Blogger KatieA said...

no i do not think that the picture of dorian grey is immoral because people are really like dorian in real life. We are around people like that everyday, so that makes it moral.

February 26, 2007 10:55 AM  
Blogger David L said...

Along with what Adam said, I think that books can't be moral or immoral because once a book is written it is that way forever, while the morals of society and people in general are constantly changing. The morality of a book cannot be judged because each person will see the book differently.

February 26, 2007 10:56 AM  
Blogger jessg said...

I think that this book is not considered immoral in today's society. When it was written, I think that it was certaintly considered immoral, and i generally think that was Wilde's point in writing it. I think that Wilde wrote this book to shock an audience. Today however, our society has grown to the point to which we have a much greater shock factor that it makes it hard for something like this book to seem absurd to us.

February 26, 2007 10:57 AM  
Blogger TaylorW said...

I agree with Matt. Today's society is much more accepting to peoples morals and ways of life. Today's society wouldn't find The Picture of Dorian Gray as an immoral book. If someone wrote it today, they wouldn't be put on trial like Oscar Wilde was when he wrote the book.

February 26, 2007 10:57 AM  
Blogger jeffg said...

I agree with Matt that our society tries to find diversity and lessons in everything. We are trying to learn from this book whereas back in Wilde's day, he was persecuted against and he was put on trial.

February 26, 2007 10:57 AM  
Blogger AdamSG said...

i dont think you can call something moral or immoral, plus i think morals has something to do with people's view's or society's views. I guess in victorian society this book would be immoral just cus its so controversail in that time

February 26, 2007 10:58 AM  
Blogger chrisg said...

I do not think that is an immoral book today because it is not an inappropriate topic, and deals more with a love that does not have to be sexual. Today, I think that there are many other things in entertainment that are much worse than this book, and still are incorporated into our media. I still do not think it is a moral book either though. There are ideas that push for a corrupted life, especially living a hedonistic life. This book cannot be described as moral or immoral because it crosses both boundaries.

February 26, 2007 10:58 AM  
Blogger melissa b said...

I do not think the book, The Picture of Dorian Gray is not imoral. As Katie said there are many people out there that are like Dorian, Basil, and Lord Henry. I agree with David a book can't be moral or imoral. It is written and it will not change. But people change and our environment around us.

February 26, 2007 10:59 AM  
Blogger LeAnneC said...

Is The Picture of Dorian Gray immoral or moral?

I don't think that the book is immoral or was ever immoral for that fact. It's not going to make act an different towards life than I already do, especially in a worser way.

February 26, 2007 10:59 AM  
Blogger AdamSG said...

i think another thing that he is trying to say in the preface, is art has no morality to society, because its such a personal thing, and not a thing that society views as a whole

February 26, 2007 10:59 AM  
Blogger NathanK said...

I agree with Matt. Then this book would have been very immoral but now because of our accepting attitude it is considered a good valuable book.

Was the story itself or the values it portrayed considered immoral at the time?

February 26, 2007 10:59 AM  
Blogger DaveV said...

I don't think that it is fair to judge a book based on morals. There is not a set of morals for all of society to followand believe. Each person can have their own set of morals, and will judge a book in their own sense based on the morals they posess themselves, so it is difficult to judge a book as a whole as immoral

February 26, 2007 10:59 AM  
Blogger ZachM said...

I don't think a book can be immoral because I don't believe a person can judge the morality of a book. They can agree with it or not, read it or not. But who are we do say if the book was moral or immoral?

February 26, 2007 10:59 AM  
Blogger KatieA said...

I think that Wilde wrote it in the way that we would question if it was immoral or not. He wants us to think that way. Dorian doesnt seem all that bad, almost relatable, and then he kills.Thats what makes you question if he is really relateable, are we still as similar as I thought?

February 26, 2007 11:00 AM  
Blogger StaceyK said...

I think the book is well written since it was written in the 1890s and we are still talking about it in today's society so obviously there is something moral about it or we would'nt be wasting our time discussing why or why not this book is moral

February 26, 2007 11:00 AM  
Blogger chrisg said...

Going along with what Kurt said about this book being taught in schools may not show that it is a good or bad book, but it allows for students to think about society, their lives, and who they are. It is a book that can be debated on and provides information into peoples lives, just like what is going on in our fishbowl.

February 26, 2007 11:00 AM  
Blogger jeffg said...

I tend to think that this book is immoral. I don't think that books like this have to be read to find tese lessons. We can find and learn from these lessons in other books that contain moral and appropriate plots, elements, and concepts. I just don't think that these issues have to be talked about to teach everyone about these perceptions. Maybe society should avoid looking for diversity and lessons in everything. I think that sometimes we should just look at what is really going on and we should simply find whether or not the plot is moral or not.

February 26, 2007 11:00 AM  
Blogger melissa b said...

I agree with Adam, that Wilde was trying to say that art has no morality to society. It is a personal thing and the art is the interpretation of something that person thought. If that makes sense. Artists do not care what is right or wrong for that time in the society, they create objects, and paintings to their likeing.

February 26, 2007 11:02 AM  
Blogger TaylorW said...

What Marie said was interesting and if you think about it true also. Think about anybody who has had an influence on an entire body of people throughout history. It was their goal and dream to achieve this and people didn't know who they were until they were persectuted. This includes people like Rosa Parks and even Hitler.

February 26, 2007 11:02 AM  
Blogger DaveV said...

Jeff I honestly can't see how the plot of the book is immoral...? What about it makes you think that it may be that way?

February 26, 2007 11:02 AM  
Blogger ashleyg said...

I agree with Chris and Kurt. If the book is taugh in schools it must be alright. However, most books that are "banned" have previously been taught in schools, so it could be just a matter of time until the book is removed...

February 26, 2007 11:03 AM  
Blogger alex ma said...

I think that calling dorian Gray immoral is hypocritical. On television and in our culture, sex sells. Even as children, we are bombarded with images of sex and promiscuity, so to call a book that alludes to homosexuality, (doesn't even talk about it directly) is wrong.

February 26, 2007 11:04 AM  
Blogger jessg said...

I think that this could connect to Dorian. He has found an ugly meaning in his once beautiful portrait which has now turned him into a corrupt creature. Basil found a beautiful meaning in a beautiful thing which gives him and his soul hope.

February 26, 2007 11:04 AM  
Blogger David L said...

I agree with Levi in the idea that Wilde shows Basil as a person without fault at times. It seems that Wilde is showing Basil as the typical "moral" person in that time, only his one vice was beauty. In a way, Wilde may be trying to say that the one vice that is acceptable to society is beauty.

February 26, 2007 11:04 AM  
Blogger jeffg said...

Dave, I just don't think that books with homosexual plots should be read to prove a point or teach a lesson. I believe that homosexuality is immoral and a lot of the book revolves around that topic. I think the book does have some very deep meanings that we can all relate to, however, don't you think a more appropriate plot could be discussed to teach these lessons or deeper meanings?

February 26, 2007 11:04 AM  
Blogger KatieA said...

I agree wit ashley that Basil put too much into Dorian. He had too much hope that dorian was as beautiful on the inside as he was on the outside. And he devoted so much of is life to him only to find out that Dorian was not beautiful on the inside at all, only corrupt.

February 26, 2007 11:05 AM  
Blogger AdamSG said...

i tend to think that dorian has really destroyed himself by his image, his image is so fake, he is hiding himself completely behind his looks

February 26, 2007 11:05 AM  
Blogger LeAnneC said...

I don't think that this book is going to be banned, what is making this book so immoral to everyone?

February 26, 2007 11:05 AM  
Blogger Amy K said...

I agree that Basil put too much faith into Dorian and I think it's interesting that Basil places partial blame on himself. I wonder if he had tried harder and made a more aggressive approach with Dorian, like Lord Henry did, if he would have made a positive impact on Dorian which could have kept him from complete corruption.

February 26, 2007 11:05 AM  
Blogger DaveV said...

I agree with alex. It's hard to call this book immoral, when you look at the things that are accepted in todays society.

February 26, 2007 11:05 AM  
Blogger Kurt W. said...

I think that Basil is showing Wilde's obsession with Hellanism. The Greeks, under Aristotle's teachings believed that everything should be taken in moderation. Basil realized his obsession with Dorian, and after seeing the picture realized how unhealthy his fixation was. The quote from the preface is a glaring contradiciton between Wilde's aestheticism and his Hedonism/Hellanism.

February 26, 2007 11:05 AM  
Blogger Kyle G said...

I still don't believe that Lord Henry is as evil as everybody seems to think that he is. I think that he is just "experimenting" on Dorian so to speak. I highly doubt that he intended for Gray to become evil and corrupt.

February 26, 2007 11:05 AM  
Blogger StaceyK said...

I agree with Levi on saying that society thinks Dorian is ugly. I think society thinks this beacuse Dorian does not live his own life he lives life the way he is told to live it.

February 26, 2007 11:06 AM  
Blogger ZachM said...

Jeff G. Let me just say that I disagree with you but that is not my point. I would say that it is better to learn of something, even if you don't agree with it, then remain ignorant.

February 26, 2007 11:07 AM  
Blogger NathanK said...

We all disagree on the fine points of morality and immorality but I think in a general sense we all have a pretty uniform view of what is right and wrong. I agree with Alex that calling this book immoral NOW is hypocritical because we all see stuff worse than this when we just turn on the TV. It wasn't then because everything was so much more reserved.

February 26, 2007 11:07 AM  
Blogger ashleyg said...

Amy, I completely agree. Basill totally set himself up for the situation he is now in. He set himself up to be dissapointed. However, today we find beauty in almost all things, but I don;t think by finding/searching for this beauty we set ourselfs up to be dissapointed.

February 26, 2007 11:07 AM  
Blogger ashleyg said...

Amy, I completely agree. Basill totally set himself up for the situation he is now in. He set himself up to be dissapointed. However, today we find beauty in almost all things, but I don;t think by finding/searching for this beauty we set ourselfs up to be dissapointed.

February 26, 2007 11:07 AM  
Blogger David L said...

I disagree with Matt that Lord Henry is symbolic of society in general. The way Lord Henry lives is almost opposite than how it seems other people lived their lives. He is blatant in his new and strange ideas, and he is not very private about his own affairs as others are.

February 26, 2007 11:07 AM  
Blogger KatieA said...

its interesting that our society's beauty today is fake. Everyone can change the way they look through surgery and pictures of models and celebs are totally fake and computer generated.

February 26, 2007 11:08 AM  
Blogger Kyle G said...

I think we almost seem to look for ugliness out of our celebrities. We crave to Britney shave her head, and judges audition for their own show in a celebrity trial. Think about it, we love to hate the people that everyone loves (if that makes sense).

February 26, 2007 11:08 AM  
Blogger TaylorW said...

I think what Matt said about society seeing beauty is true. Like everything else in society, it changes over time. Like the circle said before with the morals of society changing over time, so does the perception of beauty. It will be different in 100 years from now too.

February 26, 2007 11:08 AM  
Blogger chrisg said...

With what Scott just said about Lord Henry having money it makes me think about another question. Does money corrupt?

February 26, 2007 11:08 AM  
Blogger LeAnneC said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

February 26, 2007 11:08 AM  
Blogger LeAnneC said...

Whether or not this book has a homosexual plot, homosexuality is around in society. There is no denying it and there is no way to avoid it. So why is it bad to use a book that has an common element that is present in society? Homosexuality is really only implied in many parts as well, it's not like the book describes a physical homosexual encounter....

February 26, 2007 11:08 AM  
Blogger Kurt W. said...

I agree with Zach on this one. You cannot effectively argue a point if you do not know the opposing view.

February 26, 2007 11:08 AM  
Blogger DaveV said...

JeffRAY, i can see where your coming from, but isn't homosexuality being immoral a personal thing? Say a gay person were to read this book, im like 99% sure they wouldnt think that the plot revolving around homosexual love is immoral. I mean sure there could be a different plot to teach the lesson, but there are moreimportant things to the book than the homosexual side of things, in fact it is hardly mentiond. I gathered more about dorian being influenced badly than him being "gay"

February 26, 2007 11:08 AM  
Blogger jeffg said...

Matt has been making a good point that we teach what used to be banned. Our society, in a way, has flipped in our morals. However, don't you also think that society made the same mistakes back then. I just think that there is perhaps more of it, and there is more publicity in it as well. I think more than anything, our society has simply flipped because we are afraid to shun the evil in our society. We are trying way to hard to please everyone, as opposed to standing by our true values.

February 26, 2007 11:09 AM  
Blogger ashleyg said...

Katie- I don't think every beauty today is fake. What about our natural beauty, landscape etc. However, I can see where you are coming from when you say their is fake beauty.

February 26, 2007 11:09 AM  
Blogger AmyB said...

I totally agree with kyle. I think that Lord Henry is just playing around with dorian and experimenting, i dont think that he is really that evil. I think dorian is the one with skeletons in his closet. I think that he is really the evil one that just sits in the corner acting all inocent until he finds his time to strike.

February 26, 2007 11:09 AM  
Blogger StaceyK said...

I think no matter what people have, if they have beauty or if they have intelligence, they want the other things in life that they do not have. They are not happy with what they have, but they think if they were better looking or had more money they would be much happier in life.

February 26, 2007 11:09 AM  
Blogger ashleyg said...

Responding again to Katie- Dorian had natural beauty in the beginning of the book, is his beauty still natural? Beauty usually changes over time but it is still beautiful, Dorian is not physically changing so is he still beautiful.

February 26, 2007 11:10 AM  
Blogger StaceyK said...

I agree with Nick, on how we want to hear bad things about famous people. The reason we want this is because it makes us feel good about ourselves because that person that did something stupid is not us, even though we have done some of the stuff that we see on the news.

February 26, 2007 11:11 AM  
Blogger AmyB said...

I like what sonny said, that if you go looking for beauty, then you will find the ugly. I think that is so true how if you go out searching for something you always find the opposite first. If you look for all the beauty in a person then eventually you will find something about that person that you dont like and that is not that beautiful. Everyone has faults

February 26, 2007 11:11 AM  
Blogger Amy K said...

I agree that everyone is fascinated with the ugly. It's like going back earlier in that people wouldn't participate in sin unless it felt good. No one would do anything bad unless there was some satisfaction in it so a lot of people have the ability to naturally look for the "ugly".

February 26, 2007 11:12 AM  
Blogger ZachM said...

So what is Wilde saying about finding beauty in people? I think he is saying that we should find the beauty (and not just looks) in people instead of finding the ugly to comfor ourselves. The beauty in other people would help us with ourselves.

February 26, 2007 11:12 AM  
Blogger KatieA said...

we always look for faults in regular people and celebs, it makes us feel better about ourselves that we are not perfect and no one else is eather. The biggest accomplishment for someone is to be able to be happy with themselves that they are not perfect, and not have to look for faults in others to make themselves feel better.

February 26, 2007 11:12 AM  
Blogger melissa b said...

I think everyone has a littel bit of "ugly" in them. Like sonny said, if one keeps looking for more beauty in someone, one will find a little bit of ugly. No on is all beauty. we are not all perfect. We have flaws which to someone else it can be ugly and not looked at in a way of beauty. But one can think that is beauty and not ugly. It all comes down to opinion. We as people have different opinions of what ugly and beauty is.

February 26, 2007 11:13 AM  
Blogger ashleyg said...

Jeff- there is beauty in finding beauty in ugly things, but it is not natural beauty. By making something beautiful isn't it fake, so it is really not beauty.

February 26, 2007 11:13 AM  
Blogger TaylorW said...

I again agree with Matt when he pretty much says that no one is perfect. Most people that are really good looking don't have the greatest personalities. But those who don't have the greatest looks are some of the nicest people that you will ever come across.

February 26, 2007 11:13 AM  
Blogger NathanK said...

Amy how you described Dorian reminds me of Genisis how the devil was the snake who waited to strike to bring the downfall of mankind. Just a coincidental connection

February 26, 2007 11:13 AM  
Blogger levik said...

Answering Sonny's question, I think that if people look deep enough and analyze someone or something, they will start to question it and find faults in it. Considering Dorian, he is beautiful but everyone hears about him and almost seems to want to find faults in him. I think that perfection scares us so we try to find faults in everything.

February 26, 2007 11:13 AM  
Blogger Kyle G said...

Matt has a point, yet i still have to say that we as people need a third party to see our flaws. Yes, the person that can see you best is yourself, most people either don't see their own flaws, or refuse to acknowledge them. Good friends and family will do the same, either not seeing the flaws, or ignoring them. In all honesty if you want to find the flaws in yourself the best person to turn to is society.

February 26, 2007 11:13 AM  
Blogger LeAnneC said...

Kyle, I don't necessarily crave the wrong doings of holleywood and people in the public eye. However, when I hear about them I can't help but think that is a result of hollywood being false and fake in general. I think that portrait that people paint for people in these types of situations are wrong. I think that this part of the media is teaching girls that they must look a certain way... if they aren't extremely tall or extremely skinny or don't have blonde hair that they aren't beautiful.

I think that hollywood is so fake that it gives people false intentions, much like Dorian portrays on everyone else...

February 26, 2007 11:14 AM  
Blogger David L said...

I think that Wilde is saying the opposite of what Jeff is saying. Wilde seems to say that searching for a deeper meaning behind beauty, such as Dorian's beauty, only leads to seeing corruption and flaw. Again, this relates back to the preface. In a way, Wilde is saying that we shouldn't necessarily look past the obvious, but instead we should accept beautiful things as they are at face value.

February 26, 2007 11:14 AM  
Blogger chrisg said...

I agree with Adam that Dorian is wearing a mask. He is pretending to be something that he is not, and that makes him lose the reality of who he really is. I think a major theme in this book is reality vs. fantasy, and the idea of wearing masks is a perfect representation.

February 26, 2007 11:15 AM  
Blogger KatieA said...

why is sight the sense that society uses the most?

February 26, 2007 11:15 AM  
Blogger DaveV said...

I agree zach, i think that is Wilde's overall message. I think he just wanted to make his point that just because he is gay that it doesn't mean that he isn't "beautiful," in a sense. He is still a person and he may have just been trying to get people to see him for who he was rather than just say oh he's gay too bad.

February 26, 2007 11:15 AM  
Blogger ashleyg said...

Kyle, oh my gosh you are so right. Often times we are blinded by the fact that we think we are "perfect." We do need that third party to tell us what is up. With Dorian he wants to believe that he is always and will always be beautiful. His picture kind of serves as that third party.

February 26, 2007 11:15 AM  
Blogger Amy K said...

I KINDOF agree with Jeff that people need to keep to their morals and standards..I don't agree that it is necessarily "beautiful" to find the bad/ugly things about others (i would probably use a different word) but I think it is wise to separate the good from evil and what you personally believe. What I think is beautiful is being vulnerable enough to show your flaws and not put on "the mask" and act perfect

February 26, 2007 11:15 AM  
Blogger ashleyg said...

Because Katie it is a descriptive sense, and pretty much under that sense falls all the other senses.

February 26, 2007 11:16 AM  
Blogger melissa b said...

I agree with Matt, how everyone judges a book by a cover, and people. The first sense we use is sight. We do not look for deeper things. We look at what that person is wearing and doojng, we don't find out the deeper things. I think Wilde wants us to use other senses and not just sight. We can find beauty by using other senses.

February 26, 2007 11:16 AM  
Blogger AmyB said...

I think that the only thing you have known throughout life is beauty, then you will end up like Lord Henry, always telling people that beauty is the only thing that matters and that once your beauty is gone, your worthless.

February 26, 2007 11:17 AM  
Blogger levik said...

Matt's point is interesting in that we can not set our expectations too high. If we set them low, we can be satisfied, but if we set them high, we will be disappointed in the end. Dorian's expectations for his own perfection are very high and ends up corrupt because of it.

February 26, 2007 11:18 AM  
Blogger ZachM said...

OKAY...I am really going to have to disagree with Jeff right now. how is finding the ugly in thoer people beautiful?? Do you feel better about yourself when you find ugliness in others? I think if you let yourself shine and be beautiful than it will in turn do the same for others. I don't really believe in judging people to be ugly or not.

February 26, 2007 11:18 AM  
Blogger ashleyg said...

Amy I don't understand what you are saying...

February 26, 2007 11:18 AM  
Blogger jessg said...

I agree with Matt. Dorian has come to a point of corruption in his life that people have become nothing more than pawn to him. All that he see's when he looks at people is what they could do for him. I also think that Dorian has sold his soul to the devil. There is a quote in chapter 14 which comes from Alan. Alan claims "What is it to me what devil's work you are up to?". From this we can see that even Alan, who hasn't seen Dorian in years can blatently see the evil hiding behind Dorian's beauty.

February 26, 2007 11:19 AM  
Blogger jeffg said...

Zach, I don't think it is remaining ignorant. I think it is remaining steadfast. It is more beautiful when someone can stand by their morals no matter what the circumstances and no matter how much society changes. I think that it is ugly when people change with the worldly values. That is not beautiful to change because others change. You should be strong enough to remain steadfast and strong in your morals.

February 26, 2007 11:19 AM  
Blogger KatieA said...

ha ha i agree whith matt that plastic surgery is like selling your soul to the devil. You will never ever look as you did when you were born, you will never be completely pure again. And all this to stay beautiful.

February 26, 2007 11:20 AM  
Blogger Kurt W. said...

Zach-

If you can find the faults in people AND live with and accept them. Then you can find the true beauty in people. Maybe you can compare other people, and the beauty in the personalitites, or you can find the beauty in that same person for overcoming their flaws.

February 26, 2007 11:20 AM  
Blogger levik said...

I disagree with what Adam and Matt are saying in that Dorian wants to be accepted. He wants beauty, but he does not care what the society as a whole thinks of him or is saying about him. As long as he has Lord Henry and his pursuit of pleasure, he does not worry about acceptance.

February 26, 2007 11:20 AM  
Blogger ashleyg said...

Zach- I think Jeff was saying just the opposite. But I agree with you. i think he was saying that we find beauty in ugliness. But still finding beauty in ugliness is still not really finding beauty. It is pretty much settling because you cannot find the beauty. Which makes the beauty fake, not beauty at all. If that helps or makes sense.

February 26, 2007 11:20 AM  
Blogger Kyle G said...

Zach, I do think that most people feel better about themselves when they find ugliness in beautiful people, especially beautiful people. We feel better about ourselves because we see a flaw in someone others see as perfect, and we feel that we are at least slightly compared to that person.

February 26, 2007 11:20 AM  
Blogger TaylorW said...

I think that Dorian can only sleep right now after the murder because he was so ridiculously angry with Basil. I think that later in the novel, he will realize what he actually did and not be able to sleep and feel absolutely horrible with himself.

February 26, 2007 11:21 AM  
Blogger DaveV said...

Jeff cant morals change for your own reasons thought? Not just because of what others say or do?

February 26, 2007 11:21 AM  
Blogger jeffg said...

It is not judging, it is learning from others mistakes. I really tend to think that it is beautiful to find the faults in others IF you can learn from their mistakes. It is only beautiful if you can avoid making the same mistakes.

February 26, 2007 11:22 AM  
Blogger Amy K said...

I like that Ashley brought up the "next morning" scene where he wakes up to his cup of chocolate and smiles like a young child and then he remembers he kills Basil and still shows no remorse. He goes back to the emotion he felt when he killed him. I just don't understand why he hates Basil so much. Sure, Basil painted his picture but I'm not sure why he is killed by Dorian and why Dorian hates him so much. EVERYTHING that has happened has been Dorian's fault.

February 26, 2007 11:22 AM  
Blogger David L said...

I think that Dorian is beginning to regret his choice to let the painting take the burdens of his sin. At the same time, I think that he cannot help himself from acting corruptly even more. It's almost like the Wolf of incontinence in Dante, where the more she eats, the hungrier she gets. He has become so hungry that he can no longer control his urges for sin and pleasure, and yet some part of him realizes the horrible things he is doing. I think that he still has his conscience with him, because he knows how wrong some of his actions are, but he chooses to ignore that conscience.

February 26, 2007 11:22 AM  
Blogger jeffg said...

Ashley, I do not think it is fake beauty, I think it is a different level and sense of beauty.

February 26, 2007 11:23 AM  
Blogger ZachM said...

Jeff I don't think that you should stop believeing what you believe. But I just think that you should look deeper and not just judge someone for that. They are standing by their moral just like you are.

February 26, 2007 11:23 AM  
Blogger NathanK said...

Why can Dorian sleep? Is it because the painting is taking all the emotion from him? Or does he no longer care for the people he valused so much before he started living so horribly?

I didn't really understand this part in the book, why was Dorian so angry with Basil to kill him? Is it because Basil reminds him of what he used so be? What he wants to be?

February 26, 2007 11:23 AM  
Blogger melissa b said...

Dorian is blind to the truth. He is pyscho! I think Dorian does not really know who he is, without the painting. I mean the painting is his "soul" and when he looked at the painting I think he felt some guilt. But I do not think Dorian thinks or feels for others. He only worries about himslef. He is kind of selfish. I think Dorian does not think before he does. He goes with the floe, never second guesses imself, like Hamlet did.

February 26, 2007 11:23 AM  
Blogger jessg said...

I think that Dorian has become so corrupt that he has gotten to the point that seeing the evil in the face of his painting gives him a sense of completion and fulfillment. He now feels that each new line on his painting is simply one more which won't come upon his face and one which will through his painting display his evilness. I think he is growing proud of his acitons and less and less willing to feel remorse.

February 26, 2007 11:23 AM  
Blogger StaceyK said...

I think that Dorian felt horrible after Sybil died because he realized too late that he was still in love with her and he did not have the time to save her. So he does not care anymore if he can sleep at night or anything like that because the one person he loved is now dead.

February 26, 2007 11:24 AM  
Blogger chrisg said...

I agree with Matt, that Dorian looks at the painting because he is remorseful, but now he does not have any feeling anymore, and has become this monster that he was pretending to be. Dorian is now a new version of Lord Henry, and has been corrupted enough for Lord Henry to disappear.

February 26, 2007 11:24 AM  
Blogger DaveV said...

THANK YOU zach

February 26, 2007 11:24 AM  
Blogger levik said...

Talking about Dorian's murder, I agree with Ashley that he has no remorse or regret of his murder. He only thinks about not getting caught. He has become so corrupt that even murder is no problem for him. Before he kills him he tells Basil that it is too late to go back to the "moral" side. Dorian has accepted his corrupt self and the ways of Lord Henry.

February 26, 2007 11:24 AM  
Blogger Kyle G said...

Because Dorian doesn't really realize what he has done until he has seen his own picture makes me further believe that not only is his soul in the picture, but his conscience too. Everytime he looks at that picture he takes on the feeling of guilt that his conscience in the picture did.

February 26, 2007 11:24 AM  
Blogger KatieA said...

I agree with matt all dorian needed was the yellow book he didnt need lord henry physically, just his thoughts.

February 26, 2007 11:25 AM  
Blogger Amy K said...

AGREE COMPLETELY WITH KURT! Dorian doesn't need Lord Henry at all anymore because he learned every lesson he needed to from him, and then he can take it from there. His life is based off of what Lord Henry said in the past and then what he reads in the yellow book. I think he's learned how to act and I think he has become worse than Lord Henry ever was.

February 26, 2007 11:25 AM  
Blogger ZachM said...

Kyle-I don't think that people feel better about themselves when they see the flaws in others. It is just making an excuse for your shortcomings by seeing others.

February 26, 2007 11:25 AM  
Blogger AmyB said...

Amy-i think that dorian killed basil because he painted this picture of him that wont age and that basically shows him how wrong and what a horrible person he is, and i think that he is mad at basil for that reason. He doesnt like how he painted this perfect picture and so he was mad at him

February 26, 2007 11:25 AM  
Blogger jeffg said...

Zach- This is a major feud. I am saying that I don't think that people should change their morals because society changes. I think people should remain steadfast. I don't think that we should judge someone because of one mistake. But honestly, don't you think that someone that is homosexual will have a lot of lesser morals as well. Simply because it all relates. Not because they are overall bad people, because I do not believe that. But instead, don't you think that their morals will deteriorate because of their original sin? I think we should find the deeper meaning in people. But I also think we should be able to find the ugliness in other people. Not that they are overall ugly, but that their actions are ugly. It is not bad to find the ugliness. I said find the ugliness in people, not find the ugly person. Hate the sin, not the sinner.

February 26, 2007 11:27 AM  
Blogger Amy K said...

AMESB-I agree with you that that's why Dorian is mad at Basil but I don't really get it because it's Dorian's fault..It was HIS choice to make the painting that ugly because he himself chose the corruption

February 26, 2007 11:28 AM  
Blogger Kurt W. said...

Dorian hates Basil so much because Basil points out the extreme awfulness of the situation that Dorian is in. The painting is so disgusting that Basil can see the flaws within Dorian and he points them out. Dorian does not accept the repentance so he go berserk.


And, Smith just said everything that I said in this post. So...yeah...

February 26, 2007 11:28 AM  
Blogger David L said...

I agree with what Kurt is saying about seeing flaw in people. I think beauty can be found in flaw if the flaws are not too great or can be overcome. If you find a flaw in someone you thought was nearly perfect, it is sometimes endearing in a way. It makes them seem more human to us, it makes it easier for us to relate to them. I think searching for flaws in other people is in a way selfish, if you search to justify your own faults, but if you accept people as they are with their faults, you can see their true beauty.

February 26, 2007 11:28 AM  
Blogger KatieA said...

I think dorain knew he was going to kill Basil way before he snapped in the room. He planned it out.

February 26, 2007 11:28 AM  
Blogger jessg said...

I think that the school room represents everything in Dorian's life which he chooses to put out of sight and out of mind. That room holds all the memories of Dorian's past with his grandfather which still pain him, so now, anything which holds any pain, for Dorian or for anyone in which Dorian has inflicted pain upon, must be locked upon that room.

February 26, 2007 11:28 AM  
Blogger Kyle G said...

Zach - true, I didn't say it was a good thing to see the flaws in others. Think about it, when you make excuses for your shortcomings, don't you feel better about yourself. I didn't say we should do it, but we do do it, and we feel better about ourselves when we see ourselves compared to flawed people we feel better about our shortcomings. And, by making excuses we feel that our own flaws are less of our own fault.

February 26, 2007 11:29 AM  
Blogger ashleyg said...

Amyb- I agree. I think that the only reason he killed him was because he was affraid of others finding out that his beauty if fake.

February 26, 2007 11:29 AM  
Blogger melissa b said...

I think Dorain does not know what else to do wtih Basil. As amy said earlier he doesn't want to get caught, therefore he hides Basil's body. But could he be hiding part of himself? Basil is the one who created the painting and put everything about Dorian into the painting. His soul, and beauty to name a few. So by hiding Basil, is Dorian hiding part of himself?

February 26, 2007 11:30 AM  
Blogger jeffg said...

Dave-Yes I do think that our morals can change at times. But I do not think they should change because evil society's morals change. They should change because our own personal beliefs change. In other words, it should still be a personal change that you would always be willing to stand up for.

February 26, 2007 11:30 AM  
Blogger ZachM said...

Jeff-First of all I am in disagreement with you definition of homosexuality as a sin. Homosexual can have higher morals and be better people than you or I. I geuss it just depends on if you view it as a sin or not.

February 26, 2007 11:30 AM  
Blogger DaveV said...

Jeff, just because they are gay doesnt mean they dont have morals dude...It just different, or less according to YOUR standards. Think of their perspective on you. They see your morals on homosexuality as wrong just as you see theirs.

February 26, 2007 11:30 AM  
Blogger DaveV said...

Jeff, just because they are gay doesnt mean they dont have morals dude...It just different, or less according to YOUR standards. Think of their perspective on you. They see your morals on homosexuality as wrong just as you see theirs.

February 26, 2007 11:30 AM  
Blogger jessg said...

Katie, I think in many ways your right. I think that the moment that Dorian asked Basil up into the room, he began to feel the anger and fury welling up inside of him. He felt that the evil inside of him was about ready to well out and because of that, he knew, or at least suspected the outcome of Basil coming into the room and seeing the portrait.

February 26, 2007 11:30 AM  
Blogger AmyB said...

AmesK- haha Oh yea i totally agree with that, i think it is all dorians fault, everything so far has led back to dorian some way or another. I think that dorian is so upset with himself that he just takes it out on other people, he doesnt know how to deal with his problems so he just makes more trouble for himself and then ends up doing something wrong and he keeps digging himself a hole that he cant get out of

February 26, 2007 11:31 AM  
Blogger AmyB said...

AmesK- haha Oh yea i totally agree with that, i think it is all dorians fault, everything so far has led back to dorian some way or another. I think that dorian is so upset with himself that he just takes it out on other people, he doesnt know how to deal with his problems so he just makes more trouble for himself and then ends up doing something wrong and he keeps digging himself a hole that he cant get out of

February 26, 2007 11:31 AM  
Blogger DaveV said...

so jeff.. when a person decides or discovers that they are gay.. your saying they are doing so because socities evil is makin them do so?

February 26, 2007 11:32 AM  
Blogger ZachM said...

Kyle-That is just lowering your own standards for yourself. If you and I both fail a test, should we feel better because we both did? I mean deep down you know what you are doing.

February 26, 2007 11:32 AM  
Blogger Kurt W. said...

Lyons-

That is exactly my point, you said it perfectly. The pursuit of flaws in others is what makes mankind human. It can be used for extreme evil when justifying one's own faults or making oneself feel better. However, without this ability, no one would be able to truly appreciate and love another person. Man, I love it when someone else says exactly how you feel.

February 26, 2007 11:32 AM  
Blogger melissa b said...

I agree with katie, I think he had planned the killing of Basil out. The suspense and mood of the end of chapter 12, just gave me the impression he had planned it out. I don't think Dorian would bring Basil up...He was mad and wanted him gone!

February 26, 2007 11:32 AM  
Blogger KatieA said...

i agree with levi that the homo realationship will hurt alan worse than dorain.

February 26, 2007 11:33 AM  
Blogger StaceyK said...

I think Dorian has been angry at Basil for a very long time, ever since he finished the painting. He thinks Basil caused the death of Sybil beacuse of the portrait.

February 26, 2007 11:33 AM  
Blogger jeffg said...

Dave, I do agree that they probably disagree with me. However, I was trying to explain that I think gay people will have other morals related to it that will be lower than my standards. I think that a lot of them will still have high morals in other areas, and I do think they are still good people. I highly respect gays, I just think that it is a sin to act homosexually. Hate the sin, not the sinner.

February 26, 2007 11:34 AM  

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