posted by annes at 7:39 AM
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I do not agree that Dorian is the most individual person in the book because he is completely controlled by Lord Henry. I would say that Basil is more of an individual than Dorian is because he is still in control of his life, and is trying to live it the way he wants.
I think it's interesting how Dorian falls in love with a poor girl, while Dorian's mother fell in love with a poor man. This kind of exemplifies the romantic ideas of the novel. I think that Lord Henry, though, will be the end of Dorian's new love, like death was the end of Dorian's mother's love. This again points to the idea of Lord Henry as the corruptor or "Devil".
I think that Wilde talks about marriage in a deragatory way because of his homosexual feelings. I think he is just incorporating his own feelings about marriage and love through this book again.
I agree that dorian is by far the most controlled person so therefore he can not be the most individual. Lord Henry seemes the most individual because there is no one with an influence over him.
goerk, i agree that he isnt the most individual and that Basil probably is, but i dont necessarily agree that he is completely contorolled by lord henry...i believe that Hen has some major influence over him but i still think that it is completely different that contolling him
I agree with Jess when she said that Lord Henry is ok with Dorian getting married because it makes him more interesting. By making Dorian more interesting, Lord Henry has more reasons to be around him.
why does by Dorian geting married make dorian more facinating to Lord Henery?
Everybody seems to think that Lord Henry is some sort of puppet master, that he is knowingly controlling Dorian. I don't think so, I think that he knows he is controlling Dorian, but he is not trying to.
I agree with chris. I don't see how dorian is the most individual character in the book. He is the one that is most influence by Henry. I think Basil is the most individual character. Basil is kind of sitting back, doing his own thing, instead of letting henry influence his life. He seems like the only real individual.
andy, to be honest i think henry is just in love with every aspect of dorian, and even his getting married fascinates him for some reason, maybe because of his immiturity in his youth
I agree with Nathan that Lord Henry is the most individual. He has control over what Dorian has been thinking. I also agree that Dorian is the most controlled person.
Wilde overall is very derogatory toward eveything that is loving between a man and a woman. The marriages are not about love or anything of that sort. They all seem to be about money, increasing your power or showing off. Is that because Wilde was gay or because he didnt have a meaningful relationship of his own?
I think that if Dorian has changed as much as he has already, then he will be very much different in his relationship with Sibyl. He has a very shaky background, and so he is easily changed/influenced by those he respects and loves.
I think that by Dorian getting married it makes it more of a game for Lord Henery to play. seeing how thing he say and do will affect Dorian and his life and people around him.
Andy- I think that Lord Henry is excited that Dorian is going to get married. I think he thinks and knows that since Dorian will be creating a family there will be more people that he will be able to "influence" (control).
ps kyle..thank you i agree somewhat, i dont think he knows he is "controlling" dorian. I honestly think he is just a long winded guy who feels that he can do or speak no wrong..so wahtever he says to dorain is not used as a contolling device but just more of him just rambling on
I definately agree that womem are portrayed as weak throughout the novel. If you think about almost any time a woman is talked to by a male character or is described by Wilde, they are hardhly put down.
I don't think that he really portrays them all as being weak. Lady Henry seems pretty strong to me and able to hold her own, I don't know...
While I wouldn't necessarily say that Lord Henry is the most individual person, I would agree that he is the most powerful. When you think about it he needs other people, he needs to influence them, and needs to study them. This doesn't make him very individual, yet he has power and control over people, and can easily influence them, and loves to do it. He is not individual, but he is very powerful.
I think that nathan brings up a good point as to why Wilde is so derogatory towards marrige... i dont think that it is because he is gay because gay marriages can also be happy marriages, I think that he is portraying it like this because he never had a meaningful relationship in his own life. I see this book as a defense for wilde, this book is one where all of his thoughts and beliefs come out in a defensive way, lashing out against those that don't believe the same that he does
...kinda seems to me that in everything we have read this year there has been someone in this class who has tried to make a case for women being portrayed as weak. why?
I think Wilde's portrayal of women as weak comes back to his own sexual feelings. Wilde seems to feel that men are much more interesting, that women can only be a fleeting interest while men's personalities are what really intrigue the mind. Like Marie said, he sees them as a "decorative sex", with no real use other than as a trophy or a social symbol for a man to control or own.
I think henry is interested in dorian getting married because I think he thinks it won't last. He wants to see what happens when dorian gets bored of sibyl and decides to move on. I think that is what he finds interesting.
Is Sybil's brother over protective or is this a normal way for an older brother to react to the circumstances? Not having a sister i have no idea...
Lord Henery states that women are just for mens pleasure a tool. So if Lord henery feels this way then what role does his wife play, is she just a carrier of his children or a cover so people will not know his sexual orientation, or do you think he once truly had feelings for her.
I agree with Leanne when she said that women are portrayed as weak and stupid in the book. I think that this is so because Wilde had homosexual relationships in his life and that makes him sexist against women.
Kyle I agree right now that Lord Henry is the most powerful. However, I think Dorian has the potential to be the most powerful. What do you think would happen if Dorian I guess you could say turned of Lord Henry or decided to become independent from him. Where would that put Dorian in relation to Lord Henry in society? Just a thought.
I completely agree with kyle. Lord Henry's need to influence people around him is almost like a hobby. He's needs to feed off of people and how they react to his influence on him, I think he needs to do that or else he would be bored.
let us not forget what time period this story takes place in, and what time period it was written in. most women were considered weak back then.
In response to dave's question, I think that people have tried to make a case of women being weak in the literature we read because through this time period not only is it a societal view of women to see them as lesser, for the men, and because women's roles of this time period were to be at home and to be protected by the men.
I also saw that women have been protrayed as somwhat weak. He pretty much said that women are here on earth to serve and be there for men. The men in the novel tend to talk down to women. Sybels brother talks down to Sybel like she was a little girl.
I agree with Zach. Wilde feelings about women go back to his own feelings about women. His sexist ideas about women are portrayed in the book by women being being seen as weak characters.
i totally agree with ashleym, i think that wilde is just bringing out all his emotions and feelings in this book and he isnt holding back. I think that he has been through some pretty rough stuff in his real life and he is just putting it all into this book.
but chris even in oedipus and hamlet there was a case made for the same issue with women, and that is a whole different time period
I agree with Jess's idea that the higher class shows themselves through a "picture", while the poorer classes are more real life in their actions. It seems especially true with Lord Henry and his wife. Lord Henry hides himself behind extravagent speeches and bold ideas, and Lady Henry seems aloof and hidden behind a mask as well.
Just a clarifying question, does it say how many "times" Dorian and Sibyl have been together in like hanging out terms?
The relationship between Dorian and Sibyl seems to be a relationship that is purely based upon a theatrical view of love, where the prince rescues the princess and they have been in love from the first moment they saw each other, and how love is just a perfect thing.
ashley, I dont think so but I got the feeling that they have only been together twice!
Isn't it intersting that as women are weak in this novel so is the beginning of our civilization and creation- Hello Eve? She gave into temptation
So people always look at joe shmo and his family as the perfect family with the pretty parents and good jobs but they are the ones with the problems. To me it is funny seing how even when this book was writen it is still relevant today.
I think that Basil is more attracted to the idea of purity and beauty rather than Dorian himself. This is similar to Lord Henry, but Basil wants to preserve these ideals in Dorian, and Lord Henry wants to corrupt these ideas.
I agree with Chris. The love between Dorian and Sibyl just started suddenly. Their love seems as if they dont care what others think. They dont care about what Sibyl's family says or thinks about their relationship.
love isnt perfect at all... Dorian and Sibyl act as though they are going to "ride off into the sunset" together and live "happily ever after," thats not love. Love is hard you have to fight to make it work. I think they will just get bored.
I completely agree with chris that the love between Dorian and Sibyl seems like it is straight out of a fairy tale. Are they truly in love or are they in love with the idea of being in that "perfect love"?
I agree with Mrs. Smith when she said that "no matter if you are rich or poor, you are two-faced." Everybody acts different toward certian people, whether there friends, family, co-workers, the rich, the poor, etc...
I agree with Kurt when he proved that Basil is in love with Dorian because he is bummed that Dorian is leaving and that he is upset that Dorian is marrying Sibyl.
I think Basil is in love with Dorian, and what he feels at the end of chapter 6 is heartbreak. I think a lot of the obsessive relationships in the book - Lord Henry and Dorian, Dorian and Sibyl, Basil and Dorian - stem from love, though not "true love". I think this comes back to Wilde's idea that people should have more than one relationship. People in the novel find love everywhere, and I think Wilde is saying that this is natural and good.
In support of smith's comment, on page 39 in my book (Chapter 3, a couple pages in) Wilde even goes to mention Eve being anxious to get out of her paradise.
Caitlin-I think it is crazy that they are already engaged to be married. I guess if it was love at first site. But still.
when you see it that way Chris, I would say that Sybil is crazy, literally. Actually the more I think of it the more I realize that she likes that fairy tale story, especially when talking to her brother. Maybe she has been doing those plays so much that she wants it to really happen to her. Dorian is Prince Charming, who came to rescue the maiden from the evil theater owner. Just a thought, maybe she is trying to, or actually believes that she is living a fairy tale.
i think that lyons is right, and i think later on it might come down to a love triangle or maybe a square with dorian basil henry and possible sybil
I agree that Basil is in love with Dorian. He is upset that Dorian is marrying Sibyl and doesnt want to lose him to her. He could also feel as if he will lose Dorian to Sibyl when they are married and things would be different from how they are now.
Kyle that is a great thought. Do you think that Sibyl is then able to tell the difference between her as a chartacter and her as her person?
LOVE TRIANGLE!!! Between all guys....uh I can see it happening, and thats sad.
I think that Lord Henry is more jealous of Dorian leaving with Sibyl than Basil is. The attention Dorian pays to Lord Henry is much more than it is to Basil. Basil is feeling lonely.
yep i agree with dave and i think its going to be an all out brawl for dorians love. i think that everyone else loves dorians beauty so much that they just want dorian to love them back, i think that basil and lord henry are also having some homosexual feelings toward dorian
I think Dorian fell in love with Sibyl beacuse he is looking for someone to love him back beacuse he does not feel Lord Henry loves him and he is needing attention.
I see Basil as a passive observer, whereas Lord Henry is an up-in-you-face kind of person. Basil's dislike of Dorian's marriage is because he realizes Dorian is going to fall away from Basil if the marriage happens. At the same time, he knows that Lord Henry has begun to corrupt Dorian, and I think Basil has a greater appreciation for marriage than Lord Henry. He sees that marriage is better for Dorian than living a copious life full of indulgences and corruption.
I think Dorian kind of idolizes Lord Henry and wants to be like him and the first step to being like him he feels is to get married. So he pretty much finds the first girl that is attractive to him and decides that she is the one.
I dont think that Sibyl can tell the difference of her life on the stage as it is on the stage, she lives as she is alkways acting beacuse she does not even know Dorian's name and she says that he is her " Prince Charming".
Has anyone ever had such great feelings about someone but they were not able to show it due to society, friends, parents, or fear? or even because you care for them so much you just had to let them go because you know its best for them?Try and relate that to this twisted relation ship between dorian and these men and women.
Back to ashleys question, i think she can't tell the difference at all. Her whole life has been revolving around acting so much for so long that she has no idea who she is. Does Dorian recognize this?
I agree with Ashely, that Lord Henry has had such a big impact on Dorian that he wants to be like him so he goes out and finds the first girl he likes and then asks her to marry him.
I think that Basil is in love Dorian and that is why he so willingly gives his greatest piece of art to Dorian, especially since it is Dorian's own portrate.
I don't think that Basil is in love with Dorian in a sexual or romantic way. He loves him in a way of adoration, respect, and appreciation. He really admires Dorian's attributes and he appreciates him as a piece of art. He isn't romantically in love with him, he is simply loves him out of friendship. Unfortunately, I think we need to all realize that Dorian cares about him as a friend and is disappointed in him for making the wrong choices when he knows he could have influenced him to make the right ones.
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