posted by annes at 10:59 AM
I also agree that is is too late for Dorian.It is at a point of no return.
I think that Dorian has definitely placed himself in a Faustian pact. I think that Dorian has made a deal with the Devil, and is now stuck in that deal. While I think that Dorian could escape from the pact, I do not think that he wants to. I think that Dorian enjoys Lord Henry's corruption.
Faustian Pact... I agree with Chris that it is too late for Dorian to be saved. I was wondering this myself, but then I read that even the narrator himself believes that it is too late. I think that since he hasn't acted yet about his bad behavior nothing is going to make him change it now...
I agree with Chris when he says it is too late for Dorian. The picture is already changing and its not gunna stop. The actions that have already taken place have set a path for Dorian.
I don't think it's too late for Dorian to change. I think he's still right on the borderline between being more like Basil or more like Lord Henry. I think Sibyl's death is the turning point for him, whether or not he will choose to follow the pursuit of beauty like Lord Henry or not.
I think that Dorian has sold his soul to Lord Henry. Dorian attempted to turn away from Lord Henry's evil, but when Lord Henry shows up at his house, he gives into temptation. Ultimately Dorian shows that he has no will power to turn against evil. He is so easily infuenced by Henry's evil that he has no possible chance to turn away from it. He is doomed to be evil from now on.
i also think it is too late for dorian to change. he already sees his picture of himself changing, but keeps with an attitude more like lord henrys. he has the chance to see that he is changing in his painting, but still doesnt make an attempt to change for the better, thats interesting to me.
I also agree with chris, the picture has already changed for good, it cant go back to the way it was.
I agree with Scott on how Dorian is realizing how he is changing but he does not turn around and do anything about it. I think he is not able to turn around beacuse he does not know where to go, beacuse Lord Henry has had such a great influence on Dorian and he has basically taken over control of Dorian's life, only Lord Henry could turn Dorian around.
I agree with Kurt. Lord Henry is in sense the devil and Dorian has sold his soul to him. I think that Dorian either likes the corruption, or he doesn't realize that its happening.
I think Dorian does not realise how Lord Henry is influencing him. He wants to live the way Lord Henry describes and shows Dorian, but Dorian himself does not realise how Lord Henry is changing his life. He doesnt see Lord Henry as a bad influence.
I don't think that Dorian feels ashamed for his influence on Basil. I think that any attention, whether it is good or bad, seems great for Dorian. Even though Basil was distructed by his infatuation with Dorian, Dorian finds it as a form of flattery.
I don't think that Dorain has or holds himself to any morals at all. That way he doesn't believe that anything he may do would be wrong. It is all one big experiment in pursuit of pleasure.
i agree with scott. it doesnt really matter to dorian that he is doing what is wrong. he knows that his actions are questionable, and yet he doesnt do anything to change.
if the picture can reflect the bad things dorian does and reacts to his actions, could it, hypothetically, change for the better if dorian does good deeds? does the painting only reflect his bad deeds?
I think that we are all tempted by those things that are bad, but unlike Dorian, we don't necessarily partake in those bad things.
I once again agree with Chris. Like I said once before, if since was not enjoyable, then no one would commit it. I thoroughly believe that Dorian really likes the life that he is in and he loves the status that he is gaining. I agree with Scott that Dorian is ashamed of what he has become; however, I still think that Dorian is so entranced by what he has become that he will continue, willingly, to live under Lord Henry's influence.
I think Dorian is unsure of what he should do. If he wants to change it is not to late because he is willing to chanage for the better, therefore it is not too late. But Dorian realizes he is corrupted and most people would want to change quickly but I think Dorian is confused on who he is anymore and what he should do.
I agree with Andy that everyone sins and everyone is tempted to do whatever they want no matter the consequence, but by hiding his picture from the world, it seems to me like Dorian is almost kindof choosing that he doesn't want to learn from his mistakes (like most people do) but he wants to continue and just have the picture of himself bear the burden.
Dorian has been changed so much by Lord Henry that he is content with someone dying because of his cruelty. I think that Dorian thinks that the only thing that is truly changing is his painting and not himself. So he chooses to commit to his bad side and live life how Lord Henry has created it.
i agree with jeff that no one would sin of there was no enjoyment in it. Lord henry gets joy out of it and now Dorian is starting to.
He knows that Lord Henry is influencing him. He infact allows it, because he see's the way that Lord Henry lives his life strictly for the beauty of things, and he believes that through his consult, he will live the same way.
I agree with Andy. Everyone likes the thrill of doing bad things every once in awhile. Dorian finds joy in bad things the same way Lord Henry finds joy in messing with people's minds.
Alex thats a really good question. I don't think that the picture is just reflecting his deeds, I believe that it is reflecting his soul. We all do bad deeds, but Dorian doesn't feel guilt or remorse and that is why his soul/picture is the way it is.
I disagree. I think or at least I hope that something later on in the book will happen to make Dorian realize his mistakes. Maybe it will be so tramatic that he will realize this and become good and innocent like he was in the beginning. I think even Basil still has hope for him. He knows Dorian has become totally different and I think he believes he can be saved from that.
OHh! Have his cake and eat it too? I think that Dorian is quickly realizing that because his portait is taking the pain of his sins that he can easily sin without feeling it's pain or deal with the consequences.
I agree with Andy, that Lord Henry likes messing with peoples mind, and now Dorian likes doing the same things, beaucse it brings him pleasure. I think this fact comes beacuse Dorian follows alot of Lord Henry and he then see's his portrait and he realizes how much he has changed beacuse of the affect Lord Henry has had on Dorian.
Nick, I disagree I think that Dorian does know that Lord Henry is influencing him.... There was a quote near the end where Dorian confesses that he sticks around Lord Henry because he intrigues him. Aren't you influenced by people who fascinate you?
Alex-I think that the painting could change for the good. At first it was a flawless representation of beauty, and this was when Dorian was free of Lord Henry's influence. So if Dorian was to free himself from Lord Henry, and go back to his actions of before to revert the painting to its original beauty.
Levi asked a good question. Does Dorian think that the painting is taking all of his burden? Making it right for him to act the way he does.
I agree with Marie when she said that Dorian's painting is his scape goat. If he removes his concious/picture, then he can continue to have pleasure without feeling guilty.
I agree with Smith when she says that hiding the paiting is the hiding of Dorian's self. And when he hides the paiting it is hiding how Dorian should really be acting and treating others.
I agree with Smith, that is totally why he hides the painting, he doesnt want to have to look at it, look at himself and see all the wrong he is doing. This shows that he will continue to sin and do bad things becuase there will be not picture there to remind him of what he is doing, if he were to leave the painting up it would show that he wants to change.
I think that Dorian is going to shift all his guilt and bad memories to his portrait so that he might not have to think about anything real or bad ever again.
I agree with Katie's and Jeff's comment on no one would sin if there was no enjoyment. Obviously Lord Henry really enjoys sinning, therefore he keeps sinning. Now Dorian is starting to sin becasue he is corrupted by Lord Henry and really doesn't think for himself. Lord Henry is like the devil for Dorian, he is standing on Dorian's shoulder controlling what he does.
I agree with jeff about dorian being unaware of the bad things about him. I dont think that dorian is aware of much, Lord henry has molded dorian more into a work of art than a human
I think Dorian hides his portrait beacuse he does not want to see him in that sort of sense, he can see himself in a disheartning mood in the portrait. It makes himself in a different mood and he can see that his personality and soul is changing beacuse of the portrait that is why he does not want to see the portrait and that is why he does not want others to see the portrait of his dark side.
I agree with david, when he says that if Dorian could feel what he is doing to his soul(himself) he would definately stop. But by being blind by these hits to himself, he doesnt have any remorse or recourse to his actions, he now has a new nature of doing things that only feel good in the moment. He know longer lives for anyone but himself. Hence the reason he origionally wished the portrait aged and not him.
David makes a good point... Don't you think that any other person would try and change their own portrait for the good? Their morals would make them want to be a better person?
I also agree with scott that eventhough the painting is not out he will still always be thinking about it.
So do you think that Dorian's worry over what the portrait may look like will overwhelm him with pain and unease or do you think that he won't care at all what his picture is turning into?
I think that Jeff brings up a good point. Dorian is living in the present and he is only living for pleasure. I also agree that he is doing bad things because he finds enjoyment in doing the bad. If we only knew what good was, what would we know? I think that that Dorian is finding out that the changes that are being made to his portait are because it's taking the pain of his sins.
I agree with scott. Dorian knows that the painting shows his pain and corruption. This could be bad and he could keep going back to the painting. It could also be good, if he changes his ways and the picture of him starts to get restored back to the way it origionally was.
I agree with Andy. The portrait is like a mirror. He looks in the "picture" and that is what he use to be and he is unable to see who he is now, because there is a foggy cloud over him. Like levi said a mask but I thought of a cloud.
I agree with Levi when he says the portrait and the real Dorian are flip-flopped. That the real Dorian wears a mask. I think he wears a mask beacuse he does not want his true personality to be brough out around all the people that influence him greatly.
I think that the portrait is a reflection of Dorian's soul because it takes the punishment for all of the deeds that Dorian commits. Like Levi and Smith have said. Dorian is just a facade, and the painting is the realistic portrayal of what sin is doing to Dorian.
Leanne, i think that a person would change their portiat for good to make themselves look better and if they were bad people and had a bad life they may even change it to what they wish they had done instead of going down the path that they did.
I think that the portrait is Dorian's soul, and when his soul is becoming almost "darkened" in a way by his actions and Lord Henry's influence over him, the portait mirrors his heart. I don't think his conscience has as much to do with it
I agree with Levi when he says the paiting is Dorian's true self and that he is "a mask" in real life. He acts differently than he really is. I agree that the picture is taking the punishment for Dorian's actions. So in that way the paiting is his soul.
I agree with Levi that the painting is the real dorian and he himself is a painting/mask of what he want to be seen like.
I agree with Levi that Dorian's painting is his real life look and his literal face is only a mask that covers over all of the corruption that is within him.
I agree Hays as Dorian continues to sin his potrait becomes more and more corrupt.Thats why I think that he puts it away so that he can commit all of his sins without any sign of regret.
the idea of having a mirror image in the portrait. that is the one reason why he cannot face the portrait. I think that he has come to the point that he does not see right and wrong unless he is looking at the portrait. Only when he see's the portrait can he see what he is really doing to himself and others. So when he locks up the portrait, its almost as if he is trying to lose himself
I think that Dorian is giving into his pleasures and his desires. And, because the picture is taking all of his burden. Imagine doing bad things and not feeling anything, guilt or unhappiness. I think that is what the portrait has done for Dorian.
I can see how the picture is of Dorian's inoccence. Basil did paint the picture to represent the inoccence that he ssaw in Dorian. So then what does it mean about Dorian's inoccence when the paiting changes. Does he become less inoccent?
Maybe it is not Dorian's conscience or his soul. Basil is the one who said that he felt he had put too much of himself in the portrait, even his soul. So who's soul is actually in the portrait?
I agree with Mark. I think that Basil's fatuation for Dorian originated from Dorian's innocence. When Dorian lost his innocence Basil lost his feelings of infatuation. He no longer sees those great features in Dorian so he no longer has a reason to love Dorian.
I agree with Sonny, that by hiding his picture in the schoolroom, he is trying to put it in a place where no one but he will know about it. His childhood is his own, and he can hide it away by locking the door and walking away.
Sonny's comment is very interesting and I agree with the idea that the reason Dorian puts the painting in a place of his childhood is because the picture is a representation of his loss of innocence. Also a lot of his paranoia reminds me a little bit of Hamlet.
Putting the painting in the schoolroom is significant. The schoolroom is a place where he can relate to his childhood and he can always go back and look at it. Jeff brings up a good question, if Dorian is so questionable about the painting, why doesnt he just destroy it?
Yes he does become less innocent, Nick beacuse the portrait represents his innocence after Sybils death beacuse he didnt feel bad before he saw the painting
I disagree with David, and I think that Dorian knows that the painting is taking all the burdens for him and I think that Dorian thinks as long as the painting is up put away that it will continue to take his burdens and Dorian wont have to.
jess- i think dorian will become more and more obsessed with his painting. Last time, smith (I think) alluded to people in the novel just conducting experiments. I think that Dorian will begin to wonder what his actions will do the painting. Maybe his lack of exposure to the painting will help help him look within himself to see his soul/conscience rather than just looking to the painting for answers.
I agree with alex. I think the painting can bee used for good. I think if Dorian looks at the painting and sees his evil he has done. He can see that and change it, and be good. It can also be bad, because if he keeps sinning and tries to hide the painting, he will still be doing evil and he will never become innocent and good like he once was.
I agree with Jeff that the logical act would be to kill or destroy it. But like Smith said, it is either his conscience or his soul, so to destroy the painting would be to destroy himself.
I believe that he chooses to do wrong because he simply is in pursuit of pleasure. In Dorian's mind, there is no right from wrong.
I think that it's an intresting point that the portrait represents youth and innocence. I think that it is ironic that the portriat is placed in a place that reminds Dorian of his youth. I think that when you are in your youth nothing is really wrong, and everything is new and fresh. This portriat is bringing corruption to innocence, youth, and ultimitely Dorian...
I agree with David, I think that Dorian loves the painting beacuse it takes all of his punishment. Dorian realizes that the action he commits are reflected in the painting and he enjoys not taking the blame for his actions. Dorian made a pact that he would stay eternally beautiful, and his painting would age for him, and Dorian likes this pact because he can feel the high of sinning without experiencing the low afterwards.
I think originally the picture was painted to show his innocence because Basil even stated at the beginning that he didnt want Lord Henry to corrupt his innocence that he demonstrates in the original painting.As time goes by and as Dorian committs more and more sins the painting becomes less innocent and more corrupt.
I also think that him hiding the painting in the room where he has bad memories of his childhood is even worse. I think its like twice as bad. He is like kepping it in his past.
Going along with what Smith was saying, I think that the portrait has created an alter-ego which feels and has a soul, yet is quieted for it doesn't have a brain. I think that Dorian, the body of Dorian still has a soul, but the "good" innocent part of his soul has become traped in the picture. The evil portion of Dorian has become the only thing left in his body.
Dorain is supressing his emotions and feelings. It's what alot of people say you can't bury your emotions or one day they will all come out at once.
I think the reason he doesnt destroy the painting is he doesnt really know what will happen to him once the painting is destroyed. Just because there is so much of him already inside of the portrait. So he doesnt know, that if he destroys the painting, he will regain his soul, or if he will destroy himself all together. Just like were guessing right now which He is doing the same thing
What is Wilde saying about Victorian society when everyone is hiding who they truly are? Nothing flattering.
I agree with Zach, Dorian is burying his emotions. I think he is doing this because Dorian does not care about his emotions anymore, all he cares about is the pursuit of pleasure.
Ok, so if Dorian is locking away his feelings, then is he becoming evil because that is how he views society? Does Wilde feel that people are naturally good, but society is naturally evil which causes the good to be stripped from people or to be locked away in a closet?
Maybe basil can reveal his secret easily because he is not affected by Lord henry. Does Lord henry have an effect on Dorian in this way?
I think the reason Basil actually tells Dorian his secret is because secretly he hopes Dorian's confession might be similar and that Dorian might feel similar about his admiration for Basil. It almost seems to me like a final attempt to win him over Lord Henry. I think it's completely a sexual thing.
I belive Lord Henry does have an effect on Dorian in every way of life beacuse he has changed his persepective on everything and he will change it on this also.
I agree with Caitlin on how if he looks at the picture, Dorian can see the sins he has done. Therefore, he would change. But I do not really think that would happen. It goes back to can Dorian change? I think he will keep sinning and therefore keep hiding the portrait. He will never be true to himself.
Ok I have a question because I think the book has alot to do with Wilde's own life. Who in the novel best represents Wilde?
I like the fact that when Basil tells Dorian his secret and he thnks he has the same secret it is itresting beacuse he might have known what he said if Lord Henry never took over Basils freindship with Dorian.
I think that Zach has a good point. If Dorian keeps hiding his feelings then one day he is just going to pop because he will get so upset about the whole thing. I also agree with Adam, what would happen to Dorian after the painting is destroyed? How would he act around every one? I think that he is scared in that fact. If he destroyed the painting, would he be regaining his soul, so crushing all hope of ever doing so?
I agree with david, wilde had to suddley put homosexuality in the book and he does this a lot but does a good job of hiding it.
I think that lord henry has a great effect on Dorian. If Dorian reveals his secret what is lord henry going to think? But Lord Henry's opinion has no effect on Basil.
I don't think that any one character embodies Wilde. I think he put a little bit of himself into each of the characters found in this book. That is why it become so confusing as to who loves who. They all love each other because they are all a portion of Wilde who loved himself.
I think that Dorian was greatly affected by Sibyl's change and her death. As soon as he sees the change in his portrait he does not want to look at it any longer. By putting the cloth over the protrait in the school room, he is burring his feelings about Sibyl away because he is so hurt by her death. It is his way of honoring her.
I agree with Amy, I think that the secret telling is a way for Basil to try to win over Dorian, and still try to be with him.
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