Friday, February 23, 2007

Dorian Gray 11-12

66 Comments:

Blogger Kurt W. said...

I agree with Scott on this one, the book is not so much a drug as a crutch. An addict doesn't need a drug to make every decision, as Dorian needs the book. The book does however control his life, as a drug does to an addict.

February 23, 2007 10:56 AM  
Blogger Nick W said...

I agree with Scott when he says Dorian is using the yellow book as a bible. As people look to the bible for guidence Dorian looks to the yellow book for guidence. I dont know if I see it as a drug to Dorian, he just is being taken over by the book.

February 23, 2007 10:56 AM  
Blogger levik said...

I think that the book is more of a representation of Lord Henry than anything else. Lord Henry chose to give this particular book to Dorian because he anticipated how it would affect him. The book seems to portray the views of Lord Henry. Does the book ever say who is the author of the yellow book? Is it possible that Lord Henry could be the author?

February 23, 2007 10:56 AM  
Blogger NathanK said...

I agree with Scott that it isn't a bible for him because it is not a good book but it is something he lives by and consults as if it were his own currupt bible. And kurt put it beautifly, the book is more a crutch than a drug.

February 23, 2007 10:58 AM  
Blogger alexmu said...

I agree with what Scott said that Dorian kinda of uses the yellow book as people would the bible. He refers back to it when he is questionable about things, much like people refer back to the bible.

February 23, 2007 10:59 AM  
Blogger TaylorW said...

I think that the yellow book is like the opposite of the bible like David said. I agree that it is like a book of the devil because it was given to Dorian by Lord Henry, and Lord Henry is seen as the corruptor in the story.

February 23, 2007 11:00 AM  
Blogger levik said...

The color of the book does not compare to the significance of what the book says and its influence and control over Dorian. He buys different colors of the book and elaborate versions of it. This is so he does not get bored with the look, but he clearly does not get bored with the content. The book has controlled him for multiple years of his once young life.

February 23, 2007 11:01 AM  
Blogger CaitlinO said...

I disagree on this one, I think the book will control his book. Maybe it has not fully yet, but in time it will.

February 23, 2007 11:02 AM  
Blogger NathanK said...

To respond to Nick, doesnt a drug take over whoever uses it like Dorian is is taken over by this book? The addiction makes it nearly impossible for him to leave it behind so it is taking over and dictating what that Dorian does.

February 23, 2007 11:03 AM  
Blogger TaylorW said...

I think that Oscar Wilde is talking to the reader in that quote. If you look at the preface of the book, Oscar is talking to the reader, trying to prove a point about art. I don't think that this quote is any different. I think the entire book is Oscar Wilde trying to prove a point the the reader.

February 23, 2007 11:03 AM  
Blogger Nick W said...

I agree with Marie. When Wilde says,"There are few of us" he is saying that he is the same as the reader. Wilde is just using it to explain his ideas just as he did in the preface about his idea of art. Wilde shows himself as almost as if he is reading the same story as we are. He is using this quote to explain his art.

February 23, 2007 11:04 AM  
Blogger CaitlinO said...

I think dorian buying different versions and colors of the book, is just another example of dorians obssesion with beauty. He gets bored with the outside of the book(the beauty). But he doesn't get bored with the content inside. I think there is something symbolic there.

February 23, 2007 11:05 AM  
Blogger melissa b said...

I do not think the yellow book is like the bible or a drug. As Scott said it is not a good book.

February 23, 2007 11:05 AM  
Blogger alexmu said...

I also think that Wilde is talking to the reader in this quote. Marie brought up a good thought that he could be trying to level with the reader. Why did he choose to do this now? is a good question. He could have done this now beacuse this is a turning point in the book. Dorian is starting his downfall.

February 23, 2007 11:05 AM  
Blogger levik said...

I think that Wilde needed to just talk to the reader at some point in the book. I agree with Scott that he chooses this point in the book because it is at the turning point of Dorian's character. He has gone from innocent to corrupt and explains the methods by which Dorian arrived here.

February 23, 2007 11:07 AM  
Blogger Matt W said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

February 23, 2007 11:07 AM  
Blogger chrisg said...

I agree with Marie that evil comes from things that are extraordinarily ellegant. Lord Henry provides a life of evil with hedonism and pleasure. Dorian lives an extravigant life, and has been corrupted by Henry. Basil, the only person that has stayed away from this ellegance and has stayed pure.

February 23, 2007 11:08 AM  
Blogger Kurt W. said...

I agree with the others who said that Wilde chose this point because it is a turning point in the book. The other point I think needs to be made is that Wilde had to cut a lot out of this book because it was not proper, perhaps this was not the only time that Wilde leveled with the readers, just the only time that made it into the final edit. Of course, this is wild(e) (ha, ha) speculation, but it is something to ponder when things seem to not connect or come out of nowhere in this novel.

February 23, 2007 11:10 AM  
Blogger NathanK said...

I think he is trying to bring the reader back into the book by connecting to him or her. He is tring to have peolpe relate so that the un-reality of Dorian's situation doesn't drive readers away.

February 23, 2007 11:10 AM  
Blogger ashleyg said...

I think that wilde uses vision the most. Even on the first page he used imagery, over and over again. He always describes things as beautiful, which is related to sight.

February 23, 2007 11:10 AM  
Blogger chrisg said...

I think that the senses reveal, in this book, a love between many people, especially between the men in this story. The senses reveal a homosexual love, that does not have to be sexual, but are more about adoration.

February 23, 2007 11:10 AM  
Blogger jeffg said...

Sorry this is so late, but my blog didn't work. I believe that the book really is a "bible" for Dorian. He looks at it to find a guideline before making any decision or choice. Lord Henry really uses this book to impose his views on Dorian. Levi is right. Maybe Lord Henry did write the book.

February 23, 2007 11:10 AM  
Blogger ashleyg said...

I agree with nathan, but don't think that Dorian is unrealistic. He is totally selfinvolved and consumed. Don't we have people in our lives in our society even that are like this?

February 23, 2007 11:12 AM  
Blogger Nick W said...

I agree that more emotion is being used rather than senses. When David said that Wilde uses all senses to relate to how that effects your emotion. What you see can make you feel good but what someone else sees might be anger. So Wilde uses senses to explain how people have different emotions about things.

February 23, 2007 11:13 AM  
Blogger levik said...

I think that Wilde emphasizes the sense of sight the most. When Dorian is consumed in this book, he studies jewelry and embroidery very closely. He does, however, study the smells of perfumes, the sounds of music, etc. In my opinion, Wilde uses Dorian to show that people should indulge in the pleasures caused by the senses.

February 23, 2007 11:13 AM  
Blogger CaitlinO said...

I agree with ashley, wilde uses vision the most. I remember on the first page on the first day we read. Basically the whole page was describing one room. I could easily imagine the room and almost see it because of all the imagery he used.

February 23, 2007 11:13 AM  
Blogger TaylorW said...

I think that the most used sense in the novel is sight. Wilde spends a lot of time describing areas and people and their beauty. Like the presenters said, you can't describe or appreciate beauty without your sense of sight.

February 23, 2007 11:13 AM  
Blogger jeffg said...

I think Dave is right. Your physical senses really change your outlook on your spiritual being. There is definitely a connection between the physical aspect and spiritual aspect. However, I think your senses are deceiving. People are judgemental from sight, hearing, smelling, touching, and tasting. But I think that goes right back to the spiritual and physical connection. Our thoughts and actions are influenced by our physical senses.

February 23, 2007 11:13 AM  
Blogger alexmu said...

I agree with Scott when he said that the emotions that are being shown have to do with the senses.He uses the sense of smell, sight, and sound. I also agree with Marie that the senses that are presesnt can be decieving to Dorian.

February 23, 2007 11:13 AM  
Blogger Kurt W. said...

I think that Wilde uses these senses because they are the most aesthetic. The sense of taste does not yield beauty that often. Wilde uses senses because he is trying to write this novel as beautiful as possible, because of his own aestheticism. He is trying to appeal to the reader's senses to make his book more beautiful.

February 23, 2007 11:14 AM  
Blogger Matt W said...

Good point Jeff. I agree that it is his Bible, not that it is leading him correctly, but that he lifts is up as scripture. He sets it as the guidelines by which he lives his life, and because he sets it apart with so much reverence, it is his Bible. Unfortunately Lord Henry doesn't live by the word of the book like Dorian is. Because Dorian is trying to use Hedonism and aestheticism to escape conformity, it is ironic that his devotion to these two qualities will end up causing him to conform to the limitations set forth in this yellow book.

February 23, 2007 11:14 AM  
Blogger ashleyg said...

Yes Jeff, the book is a bible. Didn't it also say that he tried to live by it? I think that Lord Henry kind of new that Dorian was catching on to his intentions, so he though that if he gave Dorian a book that was pretty much what he was teaching him he would think that it was his own idea through the book to act this way and not Lord Henrys.

February 23, 2007 11:14 AM  
Blogger chrisg said...

I agree with Marie, that senses can be decieving because in this story people go with their senses and they end up being corrected because their senses have decieved them. For example, Dorian looks at Lord Henry as a man of wealth and is someone who is looking out for him, when in reality he is corruptin Dorian.

February 23, 2007 11:14 AM  
Blogger jeffg said...

Why are the senses so important to the characters in this book? Do they really matter at all? Or is this just a little essay inserted to let everyone know that they shouldn't judge Wilde?

February 23, 2007 11:15 AM  
Blogger melissa b said...

I agree with Ashley on how Wilde uses sight the most. In chapter 11 Wilde talked about how Dorian was interested in the jewelry, tapastries, perfume etc. He found the beauty of them. To find the beauty one needs to use sight. Perfume is more smell, but the bottle it comes in has beauty. I wonder why Wilde chose to use these feminine products?

February 23, 2007 11:16 AM  
Blogger levik said...

Dorian seems to contradict himself a little bit. He values and studies the senses thoroughly and thinks that the senses are the key to the soul. However, he also believes that his soul is captured in the painting.

February 23, 2007 11:16 AM  
Blogger ashleyg said...

By using the senses Wilde is able to tie the reader in. Along with what Kurt said, he is trying to make the book as beautiful as possible. When we think of beauty we automatically think of describing factors. These descriptive factors are more often than not characteristics that deal with the senses. If that makes sense...

February 23, 2007 11:16 AM  
Blogger CaitlinO said...

There are many people in our society like dorian. Selfish, and so consumed with their own life. That just is another example that dorian is the "human race". He has been imfluenced by other people and is ultimatley becoming evil.

February 23, 2007 11:16 AM  
Blogger Kurt W. said...

I think that senses are so important because they are beautiful, which is the sursuit of Basil and Lord Henry. As for Dorian, I think that this sudden fixiation with senses because he is trying to block out the problem presented in the form of the painting. Dorian is obbsessing with other things so that he can forget about the painting and the various emotions it instills in him.

February 23, 2007 11:17 AM  
Blogger NathanK said...

Dorian is living for aestheticism and hedonism and thats it now so usng his senses is the only way Dorian knows to appreciate the pleasures he finds. It is also he best way for Wilde to get across those values to the reader without misinterpretation.

February 23, 2007 11:18 AM  
Blogger chrisg said...

I agree with Smith, that Wilde and Dorian both had their turning point in society, where they both turned to a life that is purely hedonistic. This book and similarity seem to be a way for Wilde to make his life acceptable.

February 23, 2007 11:18 AM  
Blogger TaylorW said...

I agree with Matt that Basil created in the painting what Dorian really is. I think its interesting that, like Matt said, that as Dorian himself changes, so does the painting of himself.

February 23, 2007 11:18 AM  
Blogger Nick W said...

Jeff I think the senses are so important because they show the difference between Wilde's characters. Just as Wilde was different to people in his own society he uses the characters in his book to explain that people can feel however they want to feel. And like Smith said,"he doesn't care what people think".

February 23, 2007 11:18 AM  
Blogger alexmu said...

I agree with Matt when he said that Basil is so caught up in Dorians beauty, that he doesnt really see the person that he is. I also think that Basil tends to see the good in people and Henry sees the bad in people.

February 23, 2007 11:20 AM  
Blogger levik said...

I agree with Smith's comment that Dorian does not value the opinion of sociey and society's view of him. He believes that the majority of people in society are hypocrites and do not really know who or what he is. Basil knows that Dorian has been corrupted and tries to help him. I think that Basil does know what is best for Dorian, like Matt said. Basil is the least corrupted of the main characters at this point, and therefore is the most qualified and has the "right" to question Dorian.

February 23, 2007 11:20 AM  
Blogger jeffg said...

But Kyle, should we go off of our natural first judgement that people are evil? Should we immediately foolow that judgement resulting from the sight sense and force ourselves to believe the individual is evil? I think we should look more in depth and give everyone a second chance. We shouldn't judge from the results of one sense. That is why we have five senses. We can decipher from more than one of the results of these senses. People may be spiritually stronger than there physical image represents.

February 23, 2007 11:21 AM  
Blogger CaitlinO said...

I agree with melissa. I don't get why he choose feminine products in chapter 11 for dorian to see as beautiful. He has been putting down everything to do with women, and yet he uses things like perfume?

February 23, 2007 11:21 AM  
Blogger ashleyg said...

What do you think are societys views on Dorian. Before they thought he was just like an innocent boy and very mysterious. Now what are they thinking?

February 23, 2007 11:22 AM  
Blogger jeffg said...

Smith is right that Dorian could care less what society thinks. Dorian has his mind set, especially after his experience with Sibyl.

February 23, 2007 11:22 AM  
Blogger TaylorW said...

I think that what Andy said about Basil relating to Minos from the divine comedy is true. Minos and Basil can both really see through people and who they really are. That is why the painting constantly changes, because Dorian changes. And the painting was created by Basil who always knows who Dorian is.

February 23, 2007 11:22 AM  
Blogger Nick W said...

I dont know if Basil only sees innocence I think he also sees the way people really feel about things. And by Dorian not careing about anything thats what fascinates Basil about Dorian.

February 23, 2007 11:22 AM  
Blogger chrisg said...

I agree with Levi, that Dorian contradicts himself. I think that he is still split between which life to live, and that is why he contradicts himself. He is trying to follow Lord Henry in living a hedonistic life, but he also feels ashamed for some of the things that he has done. So I think Dorian is still trying to find himself.

February 23, 2007 11:23 AM  
Blogger ashleyg said...

Basil is almost like a modern day parent. Parents do not want to except the maturity and decisions of children, Basil is affraid to accept these things about Dorian because if he was Dorian would no longer be his "man crush."

February 23, 2007 11:23 AM  
Blogger NathanK said...

I agree with Smith to a point. Basil WANTS to see the good and the innocence in people but he cant help but see the bad as well. He can tell there is something different about dorian but cant see it on his face only in Dorians actions.

February 23, 2007 11:23 AM  
Blogger Kurt W. said...

Back in Wilde's time the men of high status, called Dandies. Where quite feminine. Apparently, like Dorian and Wilde, obsessed with things like perfume and jewlery. Things that are today associated with women. Interestingly, the Dandies frequently visited the shady Opium dens riddled throughout the slums of big cities during the final years of the 1800's.

February 23, 2007 11:24 AM  
Blogger CaitlinO said...

I think now the society is thinking Dorian has become crazy evil. He now barley leaves his painting because he is afraid people will see. It people must be wondering why he never comes out very often like he used to.

February 23, 2007 11:24 AM  
Blogger jeffg said...

I think that Basil will be able to see the changes because it is his art. He has captured Dorian's beauty, so he should be able to capture his ugliness as well. I really think that this will be the turning point in the story. If I was right from the beginning, this will be where Basil is able to draw Dorian back in.

February 23, 2007 11:25 AM  
Blogger Nick W said...

I agree with David. Basil will be able to see how Dorian changes. Basil was the first one to capture so much of Dorian and put his soul into this paiting. So when he put his soul into this paiting of course the paiting is going to change as Dorian changes. Dorian is permanately part of this paiting.

February 23, 2007 11:26 AM  
Blogger TaylorW said...

I agree that Basil will see the changes in the picture. Like said before, the painting shows what Dorian really is and Basil always knows what kind of person and who Dorian really is.

February 23, 2007 11:26 AM  
Blogger levik said...

I disagree with Smith when she said that Basil's refusal to accept who Dorian really is will lead to his downfall. He is questioning the actions of Dorian, very unlike Sibyl, and also sees his beauty at the same time. Because Basil questions the corrupt side of Dorian, I believe he is willing to accept that Dorian has two sides to him. If Basil has a downfall, I think it will be because he has figured Dorian out, not because he is blind to who Dorian really is.

February 23, 2007 11:26 AM  
Blogger alexmu said...

With Dorian changing, i think Basil will be able to see his corruption. I agree that Basil will lose his love for Dorian because he will see Dorians true self. Even though he will see this, i dont know if we will accept this because he is so in love with his physical beauty.

February 23, 2007 11:26 AM  
Blogger ashleyg said...

Would Dorian kill Basil or would Basil have a different kind of death. Sibyl killed herself after Dorian pretty much ripped her a new one. I think that Basil will be terrified at what he will see in the picture, maybe Basil will committ suicide.

February 23, 2007 11:27 AM  
Blogger Kurt W. said...

While I agree with Jeff that Basil's discovery of the desctruction of his painting will be the turning point of the story. I do not think that Dorian will be saved. Dorian is so deep in his obsession with pleasure and sin that he will not want to reprent for his actions. I think that Dorian will never accept Basil's wise words.

February 23, 2007 11:28 AM  
Blogger Kurt W. said...

I do believe that Basil would die for Dorian. Wilde said that he thought that Basil was the character he felt was the most like the real Wilde, so it would make sense that Wilde would make Basil a martyr for his cause. Basil is the pure aestheticist, and if he were to die for that cause, he would become a martyr.

February 23, 2007 11:32 AM  
Blogger melissa b said...

I think Dorian will kill Basil physically and how he killed Sibyl. I think he has a grudge towards him because Basil is the one who painted the portrait and Dorian wants to get rid of the artist but like leanne said, Dorian can kill basil's art becasue that is Basil's prize possession!!

February 23, 2007 11:32 AM  
Blogger NathanK said...

I agree with leanne that Dorian, although he says he is aesthetic, is trying to destroy art. He tore Sybil apart for her acting and it killed her. Now he is ravaging Basils painting so i think Basil wont be able to handle it, like Matt said.

February 23, 2007 11:33 AM  

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