posted by annes at 1:45 PM
ok I think that Dorain is in love with Lord Henry and it is hardest to admit your faults to the ones you love than to other people.
I don't think that Dorian sees the killing of Basil as a crime. I think that Dorian thinks he has gotten rid of a nuisance to society, more than killed someone innocent.
I think Dorian hasn't admitted to what he has done become for one reason he is ashamed, and the other reason is because of those people at the party found out what Dorian has done he would not be seen the same at all. HE would be a murderer and not the "beautiful" Dorian they are used to. They don't know the true side to Dorian.
I agree with andy that Lord Henry would use the murder as black mail against Dorian, he wouldnt help him.
I think that Dorian has a special bond with Lord Henry because Lord Henry "created" him in a way and he is a person, probably the only person, who would understand Dorian choosing to murder Basil. I think if Dorian chose to stay at the house any longer he probably would have confessed to Lord Henry about killing Basil and I don't think he wants that.
I agree. I think that Dorian has moved past Lord Henry, and like other characters has gotten to the point where he doesn't feel that Lord Henry has any use to him anymore. He has gotten to the point where he feels that Lord Henry has become dispensable.
I do not think that Dorian would of told Lord Henry because he does not need Lord Henry's approval or guidance anymore. He thinks that he can be just as "great" as Lord Henry. He is becoming very prideful, and know instead of even thinking about what he has done he does opium to get rid of all the thoughts.
Dorian seems to succumb to certain vices quite easily. We see it first with Lord Henry, then the yellow book, and now he turns to opium. I don't know what it means, but it seems to play a big role in his life.
I think that if Lord Henry did find out about Dorian and his crimes, he would do whatever he could to just try and keep control over Dorian. He likes being in control and wouldn't like to have to relinquish it.
I think that Dorian will go to Lord Henry to get consolation from him for the murder of Basil. When Sibyl killed herself, Lord Henry was able to turn Dorian's grief into something very different, and I think that Dorian, when he visits Lord Henry the next day like he says he will, will find a reason to forget Basil within Lord Henry's reasoning.
Kurt- I do think that Dorian sees it as a crime, but I just don't think he really cares. He knows what he is doing is wrong but it just doesn't bother him.
i agree with Kurt. Dorian shows no remorse that he killed Basil. He thinks he just got rid of "nat" Basil was a nat to Dorian. Dorian does not really care that he committed a crime
I agree with Kurt. I think that dorian doesn't think that killing Basil is a crime and that is why he could sleep the night after it happened. I think that he is ashamed of what he did but he doesn't feel bad about it.
I think the reson Dorian has not confessed to Henry yet is because he is not as influenced by him anymore. Dorian has become his own evil person now and does not need Henry anymore. In the beginning, he was so influenced by him, and he would of confess, but not anymore.
kurt-why do you think that Dorian sees Basil as a nuisance?
Zach-Exactly. He doesn't confess to Lord Henry because he doensn't think that what he did is worhty of telling Henry. He will only confess things that he thinks are really horrible.
If Dorian told Lord Henry that he killed Basil, I think that Lord Henry would almost blow it off. Lord Henry would think that Dorian should do whatever he wants, and if at that time killing Basil was what Dorian wanted, Lord Henry would be fine with that. I do not think that Dorian will tell Lord Henry, however. He is very scared of the consequences if word of his murder gets out. This is why he had Campbell cover up all evidence of the murder.
I also agree that Dorian has not told Lord Henry because he thinks it is a crime, but he doesnt care that he did it, not that it is a crime. He thinks his killing of Basil was necessary so he does not believe that he would be in trouble for it
I agree with Marie. The suicide of Sibyl does make Dorian look better and makes Dorian be able to accept her death much easier. If he confesses to the murder of Basil it will make Dorian look much worse. Dorian doesn't want that, he always wants to look good in society.
I agree with Leanne when she said that Lord Henry would have more sympathy for Basil then he would Dorian because he feels sorry for Dorian.
I dont think that Dorian is in love with Basil. Once he saw him at the party he automatically wanted to leave. I think that he is finally starting to have regrets for the things he is done and i think that seeing lord henry triggers that and makes him have a feeling of annoyance or maybe even hatred towards him.
It seems to me that Lord Henry is still there, just represented in the yellow book that he gave Dorian.
It seems as though Dorian has separated himself. I think that the portrait's power over Dorian is what caused him to commit the acts that he committed, which has led him to not need anyone.
I think that Lord Henry has been doing his own thing now. I think that he has realized that Dorian does not need Lord Henry as much anymore. He can go on living his life, with the knowledge that he corrupted Dorian. With the giving of the yellow book, Lord Henry can feel at ease that his ideas and thoughts will still be with Dorian.
I think Dorian doesn't care that he killed Basil because his conscience and his soul are in the painting. I think he realizes what he has done, I even think that he knows it was wrong. But unlike most people, he isn't affected by this knowledge of right and wrong. When a normal person does something wrong they feel guilty because they know it was wrong, they have their conscience. Dorian cannot feel this same guilt because his conscience is trapped in the painting.
I think Lord Henry has been letting Dorian live his life more becuase in the first few chapters he showed him how to live and where to go but now he thinks Dorian can live on his own and he is too caught up in his own life to even notice Lord Henry much more.
I agree with Levi that the book could fill his place and guide Dorian. I wonder if Lord Henry wrote the book, or if he possibly read it when he was Dorian's age which is why he is the way is he now?
I think Lord Henry has not been around because he doesn't need to be in the "picture". Lord Henry has put enough influence into Dorian and Lord Henry doesn't need to stay around to change Dorian anymore. I agree with what Scott said by, when Lord Henry gave the book to Dorian it was a part of himself so then Lord Henry did not need to be around anymore.
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I agree with Taylor and Marie. If Dorian tells Henry about the murder, that would make him ugly. He wants to be beautiful, he searches for the beauty in things and if he himself becomes ugly then he will not be getting what he wants.
Alex-I think that Dorian feels that Basil is a nuisance because Basil is the only person who will constantly question Dorian. Basil is the only character with a moral compass, who cares about the people and the beauty. Dorian does not feel this way at all, and when Basil presses his beliefs on Dorian (by telling him to repent), Dorian silences the person who has been bugging him. Dorian thinks that everyone thinks the same way as him, so he is just taking away an annoyance more than killing a person.
I agree with jess... Dorian is to the point where he doesnt need someone to rely on and someone to influence him. I think he is now his own person
I think Lord Henry's intentions in giving Dorian the book was another part of his experiment. He has had tremendous effects on Dorian personally, and now he wants to see if he can affect Dorian through the book. Henry was to observe the effects of the book through Dorian's actions.
I think that Dorian feels that Dorian views Lord Henry as being his evil accomplice and that is why Lord Henry is one person who Dorian is still willing to be around.
Dorian has finally seen that Lord Henry has been a bad influence and doesnt want to see him anymore. I also agree, however, with zach that lord henry is still in dorians life, in the yellow book.
I agree with goerk, i think Lord Henry has backed off a little because he recognizes the effects that he has had so far and i think that he is satisfied. I think Lord Henry is just waiting for Dorian to realize how he feels about him, he is kinda sitting back just waiting for it to happen
Lord Henry will always be with Dorian as long as he has the yellow book
I agree with Scott. I think that the yellow book has taken Lord Henry's place in the last few chapters, and that is why we have not heard from him for a while.
I agree with ashley. I don't think Dorian is in love with Lord Henry because right when Dorian got there he wanted to leave. But I don't think he he having regrets. I think being around lord Henry,reminds Dorian of the painting and Basil. Dorian does not know what he should do now.
I agree with Smith that Basil is not a pure person. Basil seems to me just to be a regular person that has sins and feels his guilt, just like everyone else. He is really not a moral person, he just goes after beauty around him.
Basil points out Dorian's beauty, however it is Lord Henry who makes Dorian feel as though beauty is the only thing which matters. Like what Mark said.
i think that when we saw that lord herny is no longer the puppet master of dorian, though lord henry did influence him to beocome what he is today, when we look at it, i think that dorian has become is own portrait, he is his own devil, for he only seeks those things that are sinful.
I agree that Lord Henry is the corruptor in Dorian's life. I think that everyone that reads the book would also think so too. But I think that Dorian sees Lord Henry as his savior since the beginning and up until now. I think that Dorian will realize however that Henry is the corruptor by having youth and beauty take over his life.
I agree with Smith. I think that Basil was the first one to make Dorian's mind believe that he is so perfect. I don't think Basil is the reason for his own death though. Yes, Basil started this whole idea of beauty, but Lord Henry made Dorian's mind warped. Lord Henry put Dorian's mind in a state of perfection. Basil's intentions were good while Lord Henry's idea with Dorian were corrupt.
I agree with katie, Lord Henry has bad intentions and when he is telling Dorian how beautiful he is. When Basil said all that he said it meaningful and with good intentions.
I agree with what katie is saying.... Bail painted the painting with good intentions. I like that the cause of Dorian's corruption is Lord Henry. Sure Basil painted the painting and started the whole thing but Dorian and Lord Henry took the painting too far.
I agree that Lord Henry is responsible for the corruption of Dorians life. He had a big imfluence on Dorian and his views. i also think that Basil is responsible for the corruption of Dorian. Basil is the one who painted the picture. The picture plays a really big role in the downfall of Dorians life.
I don't think that Basil it to blame for his own death. Basil is the creator of art, period. He did not corrupt Dorian. Is it someone's fault to be in love with someone?
Ya, like Andy said. If Basil had evil intentions, would he have given a part of himself to Dorian? He gave a piece of his heart to Dorian, Lord Henry gave a piece of corruption.
I agree that if Lord Henry never showed up then Dorian wouldnt have changed the way he did. Lord Henry was the one that told him of the beauty in life and then Dorian realized what happened in the painting and it changed his life but I dont think it corrupted him, it influenced him in a good way.
The characters in this book need to be looked at with a sense of relativily. In this time period, in this part of society, most of the people were knee-deep in continual sin. Marraiges meant nothing, mistresses and prostitutes were common, and drugs were bred in the streets. So Basil, Lord Henry, Dorian, and all the others are all impure. Basil is by no means a pure or holy person, but compared to the other characters he is the most moral.
I agree with marie, the reason that Basil first see's the beauty in dorian, because at the beginning of this book, he is so pure, he has nothing except for himself. the picture is just a extension of himself, its just easier for everyone to see, and sucks up everything that he sees and what everyone does, such as why he decides to make the wish.
I don't think that the picture corrupts Dorian. The picture is his actual soul. So of course Dorian wants to watch how the paiting changes. When the picture changes the true Dorian changes.
I think that the picture of Dorian has corrupted him because he now knows that he will not bear his aging or his sins. This gives him a way to keep doing these awful things because he does not have to deal with the consequences.
Wait I have a question. Was Wilde a aesthetic??
I think taylor makes a good point. Although we may see Lord Henry's influence on Dorian as bad, Dorian may feel that everything that Henry has done for him has been for his greater good. Without Harry, Dorian would not be who he is now, andi dont think that Dorian is upset or unhappy with the way he is.
If Lord henry was not there in the beginning. Dorian would of never made the wish, He would of been fine with the paining. Basil just painted the painting and tried to keep dorian away from henry. Henry corruped dorian more than basil did.
I definately agree that the picture would have never changed if Lord Henry hadn't tried to influence Dorian. Because of Lord Henry's influence, Dorian only tries to persue beauty. This changes Dorian, and in turn changes the picture. These changes are so great that it causes Basil's death.
I do not think that Lord Henry had bad intentions of influencing Dorian, that is just the way he lives life, he looks at it from the opposite persepective. He tells Dorian all these different things, and some of them show new images to Dorian's own life but he is not trying to corrput him, he is trying to help him because he think he is so beautiful
I agree with Katie that the picture would never have been like it got to if it wasnt for Lord Henry. Lord Henrys influence on Dorian led him to want to look the same way forever and put his soul somewhere else (in the painting). Having his soul in the painting and being able to see his corruption and the badness in his soul lead to Dorians downfall.
I think that Basil is the purest person that we see in this novel. The only sin that I see him committing is his lust or worship of Dorian. He hears the rumors about Dorian but is blinded by his obsession for him, and even when Basil sees the corrupt painting, he still thinks that Dorian can be brought back to a path of righteousness.
I agree with Zach. I don't think Basil's death is his own fault. I think he is too naive and that he shouldn't have gotten as involved with Dorian as he did. I think Levi is right when he says that he idolizes himm, which isn't right, and that IS his fault, but I don't think he necessarily caused Dorian to murder him.
I think that Kurt makes a great point, we have to look at the time period that this book was written it's not like it was written in todays world. However i still feel that Basil painted the painting with good intentions whether he is a good person is a different question.
I think I agree with Smith, I don't think that Basil is a very pure person. But I definately disagree with Mark, I don't think that Lord Henry had anything to do with the painting and the changing for the picture.I don't think that Lord Henry is evil, or has any fault in this story. Dorian was the one that listened to Lord Henry, and did what he suggested, and all on his own. Henry only suggested these thoughts and actions, it was Dorian that followed through with them. Everyone seems to think that Henry is a bad person, but there is no real evidence of this. Dorian is the bad person.
Dave I dont think that Basil is the purest character in the book but I do think that he is the one who has the best intentions.
Well zach i agree with you but i was thinkng...if not basil then who is more "pure?
I agree that the corruption of Dorian was Lord Henry's fault. Lord Henry was the one who kept putting ideas into Dorain's head. I like the comparison of Dorian being a sponge and Lord Henry is like water. Dorian just keeps soaking in Water( information that Lord Henry is sharing). But I think eventually Dorian is going to stop listening to others. Example he walked out of the party. He did not even want to spend time with Lord henry.
China- Sybill to me is the purest character in the novel.
I think if Dorian met Basil and Lord Henry later in his life like at this stage of his life, they wouldnt ever influence him as much as they did when he was young. I think they changed him so much because, one he was so young, and two because he was always lonely and never had many friends and he thought what Basil did at first was great but then what Lord Henry said changed his outlook of what Basil taught him.
Zach-Wouldn't being the character with the best intentions kind of make him the purest character?
I don't think that Dorian can live without someone else's influence either. I think that Dorian feels that Lord Henry's influence, eventhough it is negative, has truly helped him live and achieve what he has always wanted.
I agree that at this point, Dorian cant think for himself. Even though Lord Henry is no longer in his life, he still is kind of. The yellow book is with Dorian and he still lives by this.
I agree with Amy that Dorian cannot think for himself anymore. He has become a pleasure being that has been corrupted by everything around him. I do not think that anything or anyone in this book is really pure, everyone is living for themselves.
Zach, who do you see as the purest character in the book? Sibyl has the same idolatry for Dorian, everyone else is shown with flaws that seem to me worse than those Basil posses. I guess it depends on your idea of what sins are the worst.
ya but how can Sybil be more pure than Basil when she commits a sin like suicide...I'm pretty sure that that's not a forgiveable sin
I still think Dorian can think for himself. Right after he killed Basil he is like, "oh crap, I killed him, now I have to clean up the mess I made." He thinks for himself and decides he needs to clean up after himself to make sure he doesnt get caught for this. He doesn't want the true person to be revealed to the rest of the world.
I disagree that Sybil is the purest character in the novel
I don't think Basil is the most pure character either. I actually think Sibyl is. She's ignorant and naive, but she is the most pure.
I completely agree with what scott said. Dorian's reaction is completely immature. He is not thinking for himself. This discussion so far has been a matter of who hes influenced Dorian... Why cant Dorian just think for himself and make up his own decisions on how to react to the painting. It shouldnt be a matter of who negatively influenced Dorian. he seriously needs to grow up think for himself and stop reling on other people!
ok I just asked Smith if Wilde was an aesthetic and yeah he was. So why would he judge Basil, who is all about the pursuit and creation of beauty, as harshly as Ms. Smith?
Nick- I disagree because Dorian cannot think for himself anymore, he is way too corrupted to think for himself, all he thinks about is the portrait and what Lord Henry would do at this point
Dorians past does explain his behavior, he is very childish, he never grew up, and he is very impressionable.
I agree with Leanne that Dorian is a child at heart and wants to learn from others and be like others. He has not learned anything for himself, and just takes what he knows and believes from Basil and mostly Lord Henry. As a child Dorian was locked away in the room he puts the portrait in. Once he gets out he wants to learn and accepts whatever people tell him. He was so eager that when he got out he was doomed by his innocence and lack of knowledge and understanding.
alright stacey who do you think is then?
I think that Dorian has become a slave to his emotions and whims rather than Lord Henry. He has been influenced by Harry, and this comes into play in his emotions, but Dorian himself says that at times he thinks he has become completely dependant on his emotions and has nearly no control over them any longer.
Dorian is immature and never grew up. To a point he is still a kid since he has not grownup. He has not showed that he thinks for himself. He is lost on what he should do next.
Stacey - He does think for himself. The picture is HIMSELF. He wants to see how he changes, and is worried that people will find out the truth about him. He only showed Basil the paiting because Basil created it.
Zach, maybe Wilde saw his aestheticism as a flaw, and showed it through Basil. The man was obsessed with admiring beauty, to a point that it prevented him from doing anything else. Just a thought.
I think that Sybill is the purest character in the novel. She is untouched by the rest of society and corruption that affects Basil, Dorian, and Lord Henry. While she does commit suicide we should not judge her too harshly.
I agree that Dorian being locked in the room as a child has had an influence on his life now. When he was isolated and locked in the room, he didnt have anyone to impress. Now that he has people to try and impress, like Lord Henry and Basil, he wants to take advantage of that and will do all he can to impress them. While trying to impress them, he took on their point of views on subjects and turned him into the kind of people they are (mainly Lord Henry).
I think lord henry's bad influence is the reason for dorian being corrupt now. He has had the most influence on dorian.
Ok, well Basil may have sinned himself, yet his intentions were still good. Dorian wasn't even aware of Basil's infatuation of him until he confessed his love way later in the book.
dave- I think it is Dorian himself because he is the one who let them change his life, even though most of us think it is not right, it is right becuase that is what everyone does in today's society, they do what influences them by others.
I agree with Scott. I think that Dorian's beauty is corrupt. He now knows from Lord Henry and Basil. He can now use that to get the better out of people.
I disagree with Nick, Dorian is no longer thinking for himself. He is acting childish and not taking responsibility for his actions and he doesn't care. he has been influenced way to much by Lord Henry.
I agree that it is SO interesting that Dorian has become so manipulative that his first thought when he is about to be killed is his looks and how he can use his youth to get out of trouble. This scene is the perfect example of how he lives his life.
When Dorian is influenced by society when he "gets out" he is showing his ultimate pursuit of pleasures. Throughout the book he has pursued pleasure. At the beginning, his pursuit of understanding might not have been a conscious thing, but now he pursues pleasures and has made a decision to do so. These pursuits are what define Dorian.
not judge her too harshly? Dorian has just succomb to the influence of lord henry and just lives like that (yai know he kills basil im not saying he is a pure dude) ...Sybil gave into Dorian's influence and killed herself how do you not judge that?
I don't know if Dorian was ever really alive. I think he had the potential to live, but it was taken from him before he had the chance to embrace it.
Along with Zach's idea of why Wilde would portray Basil, the pure aesthetic, badly, I think it comes back to a fishbowl we had awhile ago. Maybe Wilde doesn't care about society's ideas of what sin is. Maybe what he portrays as society seeing corruption, he sees as perfection or worship of the purest thing, beauty. In a way, then, Basil might be the person Wilde wishes he were.
Nick- The only way the picture is himself and it changes in his mind becuase of Lord Henry, if it wasnt for Lord Henry he wouldnt even have known it was a bad painting and he changed his persepctive on life.
leanne's connection between dorian's white hands, and how wilde descrines him now. and how dorians soul is basically dead is very interesting. I never thought of that.
Is it possible for Dorian to die, if his entire life is in the picture, than is he even still alive? Like Leanne said, Dorian is possibly not even alive, or has a dead soul. If the picture had not captured all of his sins and guilt, chances are he would be dead by now.
Sybil had no other way to live, her life was on stage, she lived her life as it was told to her, by script, and now she lived it how Dorian told her, he told her he hates her and never wanted to see her again, so she had nothing else to live for because he basically said her acting sucks
I agree with Zach that Wilde tries to make us think that Basil is not at fault for Dorian's corruption. Basil values beauty, much like the views of Wilde in real life that are shown in the preface and background information.
I don't think Beauty is always seen as a bad thing. People want to bring out the beauty in themselfs to show others that they are beautiful. People love to see the beauty in things. Its a way of relaxing and taking the stress out of our everyday life.
Basil is like God he gave us the beauty and the choice but then it is teptation and sin like Lord Henry that makes us do the bad things
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