Wednesday, March 07, 2007

Dorian Gray 19-20

77 Comments:

Blogger Matt W said...

I believe this book is immoral (Not necessarily a bad thing) in the fact that it holds true to Lord Henry's statement that immoral books show the world their own shame. This book definitely succeeds in showing society for what it truly is and what it can drive people to do.

March 07, 2007 11:02 AM  
Blogger AdamSG said...

i think the book is moral because it shows at the end when he tries to destroy the soul, he takes on the full burden on what his soul has endured during his life

March 07, 2007 11:02 AM  
Blogger melissa b said...

I think this book is not immoral or moral. It is hard to say. It all comes down to opinion. This book could be moral to one person but to the next person the book could be immoral. very hard to say. Comes down to ones beliefs

March 07, 2007 11:02 AM  
Blogger ZachM said...

But matt is it an immoral book if it is trying to teach a lesson about life to society?

March 07, 2007 11:03 AM  
Blogger KatieA said...

I agree with Maree with it makes me so mad that Dorian was more mad at Basil for paintitng him than he is at Lord Henry for corupting him. I blame Lord Henry, not Basil.

March 07, 2007 11:03 AM  
Blogger CaitlinO said...

I agree with marie, that lord henry got off really easy. I think lord henry should of been the one killed. Basil is the one that got killed and i think henry is worst than basil.

March 07, 2007 11:03 AM  
Blogger Kurt W. said...

I think that this is an immoral book. Wilde spends most of the book trying to justify the actions of the characters through means of "pursuing art or pleasure" and finally tells the world not to judge the book because he says that a book cannot be moral or immoral. Then, in the last few chapters of the book, Wilde himself calls it immoral: "The books that the world calls immoral are books that show the world its own shame." What a cover up. Wilde knows that the book will be seen as immoral because he himself sees it as immoral; he just does not want you to judge the morality of his book.

March 07, 2007 11:04 AM  
Blogger ashleym said...

I think that justice is not necessarily a reprocussion of your actions but a realiization of what you have done and wanting to change from that. I realize that it was too late for Dorian to change, he can't take back the things that he has done but I think that at some point you have to realize the wrongs that you have done in youre life, in order to start to change.

March 07, 2007 11:04 AM  
Blogger jessg said...

I agree with the idea that the book is moral. In the end, Dorian suffers his worst fate. He dies a crippled, ugly old man to whom nobody loves. He is repaid for his sins which he committed.

March 07, 2007 11:04 AM  
Blogger Haley C said...

i agree with Matt. This book is immoral because the characters hold no morals. Dorian killed Basil today we do not consider murder a good moral. I think that society needs to realize that this book is showing how it really works.

March 07, 2007 11:04 AM  
Blogger CaitlinO said...

I think the overall message of the book is be yourself and don't worry about what others think about you.

March 07, 2007 11:04 AM  
Blogger ZachM said...

Just going off what Levi said, and Im not going to take credit for this idea, but we can the reason for Dorian’s death as his abandonment of aestheticism. If he did not reject the philosophy, then he would not have died. Maybe Wilde is trying to tell us something with this.

March 07, 2007 11:05 AM  
Blogger zverges said...

"There is no such thing as a moral or an immoral book. Books are well written, or badly written. That is all." (Oscar Wilde) I think that the question should be, "Is this a well written or poorly written book?"

March 07, 2007 11:05 AM  
Blogger AmyB said...

I like that levi said that the book is basically telling us that once we do these bad things, we cant just go back and do something good and expect our bad sins to be cleared. I think its so true because dorian pretty much thought that if he didnt take advantage of the girl, then the picture would change. Thats all he wanted to see was the picture change, so it wasnt a true kind act, he did it soely because he wanted the picture to show that he was good.

March 07, 2007 11:05 AM  
Blogger LeAnneC said...

I think a message Wilde is trying to get across through this book is that people try to portray themselves differently and ultimitely in the end it leads to the destruction of man kind.

March 07, 2007 11:06 AM  
Blogger KatieA said...

I agree with caitlin, the message is to be yourself, it doesnt matter whats on the outside. What mtters is on the inside.

March 07, 2007 11:06 AM  
Blogger Haley C said...

I agree with Caitlin. The message is be yourself, and i think that it is saying that the only good thing that can come from putting a mask on in front of society is nothing.

March 07, 2007 11:06 AM  
Blogger chrisg said...

I agree with Scott that all consequences will get to him sometimes. Even though they do not punish Dorian, right away, at the end he pays the ultimate price.

March 07, 2007 11:06 AM  
Blogger melissa b said...

I agree with Marie. Dorian is more mad at Basil for the painting while Lord Henry is the one who corrupted him. But I think Dorian is stubborn and does not want to realize and admit that he was corrupted.

March 07, 2007 11:06 AM  
Blogger ZachM said...

In the book it said that the wicked aren't punished and the good aren't rewarded. So the people in the middle, like Dorian GRAY, get punished. This goes along with what Lord Henry said about being bored and the idea of aestheticism and hedonism.

March 07, 2007 11:07 AM  
Blogger ashleym said...

i dont think the characters and their morals decipher whether or not a book is moral or immoral. I think that the writer and how he portrays his morals or immoralities decided if this book is moral. I honestly don't think their is such thing as an immoral book.

March 07, 2007 11:07 AM  
Blogger jessg said...

Ok, so at the begining of the book, Lord Henry seems to be the all knowing character, but as the book nears the end he becomes another character in the dark and Dorian becomes the all knowing one. What do you think that says about these characters and how we view them on the "hell" unit spectrum?

March 07, 2007 11:07 AM  
Blogger Kyle G said...

I don't think that Lord Henry feels guilty, but I also don't think that he is as evil that everyone else seems to think he is. As I have said before, he is just experimenting on Dorian, and seeing how people react, psychologically, to his influences.

March 07, 2007 11:07 AM  
Blogger jeffg said...

I would agree that the ending of this book is moral for some characters but not for others. Dorian dies as an old man that nobody even recognizes. In fact, the only way they recognize him is because of the rings on his fingers. However, what about Lord Henry? Did he get what he deserved? Yes Sonny, his wife left him, but he had also lied throughout the book saying he didn't have a good relationship with her. So is that perhaps what he wanted?

March 07, 2007 11:08 AM  
Blogger CaitlinO said...

I agree that this book is immoral. I think this book is a cover up. Wilde is using it by saying don't worry about what I am doing, live your own life. That kind of goes with what I think the overall message is, he is saying don't worry about what others think or say about you. Thats how he lived his life.

March 07, 2007 11:08 AM  
Blogger LeAnneC said...

I agreee with Adam, I think that Dorian just comes to a point where he can't take the paiting anymore. I think that he wanted to give anything to start over again and I think by destroying the painting it would be like a recleansing.

March 07, 2007 11:08 AM  
Blogger chrisg said...

I think stabbing the painting was a way for Dorian to rid himself of the evil. I do not know if he knew it was going to kill him, but I think that Dorian thought it would rid himself of the corruption that has already taken place in his life.

March 07, 2007 11:09 AM  
Blogger melissa b said...

I agree with Leanne on the message of the book. I think it is saying that trying to be someone else, leads to destruction and a downfall. Therefore what is the good of being someone else? Be yourself and it will go smoothly.

March 07, 2007 11:09 AM  
Blogger jessg said...

I think that Dorian stabed the picture in order to attempt to resurect himself and to eliminate the sins which he has committed. As he attempts in these final chapters to become good, he feels that in order to become good he needs to eliminate the source or evidence of his sins.

March 07, 2007 11:09 AM  
Blogger KatieA said...

with what sunny was saying about stabbing the painting, i think it was somewhat a suicide. He was killing the painting but was hoping to kill himself too, hoping to die almost. I dont think he really wanted to live anymore.

March 07, 2007 11:09 AM  
Blogger zverges said...

I think that Dorian's final decision to destroy the painting comes from his inability to change it for the better. He is incapable of saving himself, (the painting)so he decides to end it once and for all.

March 07, 2007 11:09 AM  
Blogger ZachM said...

I think Jeff that we can't judge if the book is moral or immoral for certain characters. I don't think Wilde would have subscribed to the philosphy of characters getting what they deserve. I don't think he believes in a final punishment.

March 07, 2007 11:10 AM  
Blogger AmyB said...

I think that dorian sees the picture as apart of himself. I think that he sees the picture as his soul and his concsience. He sees his true self in the picture, the dorian that kills people and goes behind peoples backs, and he doesnt like that side of himself so he tries to kill that part off, and he ends up hurting himself even more.

March 07, 2007 11:10 AM  
Blogger Kurt W. said...

I agree with Nathan, I think that Dorian tried to destroy the painting to purge himself of the evil it represents. I do not think that it was the removal of Dorian from true aestheticism, because the painting reflected that Dorian did not truly want to become a moral man. It just showed that he was hypocritical.

March 07, 2007 11:11 AM  
Blogger KatieA said...

I think he had to do something as drastic as stabbing the painting because of how much it effected his life. If he just painted over it or threw it away it would do justice for all the pain it has caused him.

March 07, 2007 11:11 AM  
Blogger chrisg said...

Also, I think that stabbing the painting is a way for the reader to kind of look back at the stabbing of Basil, and recognize his greatest downfall and relate it to when he is trying to rid his life of corruption.

March 07, 2007 11:11 AM  
Blogger jeffg said...

David makes a great point. Dorian really is trying to release himself from his conscience. However, I don't know if I agree with David that he wants to cut it off so that he can always be bad. Do you think it is maybe because he wanted to get rid of his guilt and past so that he can start over.

March 07, 2007 11:11 AM  
Blogger jessg said...

I think that Dorian is only attempting to kill off his evil half. I don't think that he thought that through slicing the painting that he would actually be killing himself. He thought that he would just be freeing his soul and relieving him of the evil that has overtaken him.

March 07, 2007 11:11 AM  
Blogger CaitlinO said...

I think dorian knew what would happen if he stabbed the painting. It was intentional, I think he thought there was no way out.

March 07, 2007 11:12 AM  
Blogger zverges said...

I agree with David, Dorian is trying to sever his own concious from his body. he wants to go on living without the weight of his own guilt.

March 07, 2007 11:12 AM  
Blogger ashleym said...

I agree with matt, Wilde had no intention of killing himself by stabbing the painting. He wants to be free, I dont think he cares anymore if he looks old and withered i think that he wants to be free from his soul, and to maybe start back from square one.

March 07, 2007 11:12 AM  
Blogger melissa b said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

March 07, 2007 11:12 AM  
Blogger jessg said...

Why do you think that Dorian choose to stab the paining in the heart?

March 07, 2007 11:14 AM  
Blogger ZachM said...

So is Dorain trying to change, or stab the painting, because he is still selfish? He really has not learned the error of his ways.

March 07, 2007 11:14 AM  
Blogger chrisg said...

I agree with Smith that Dorian is just trying to get rid of the painting as a easy way to start his own life. He thinks that he should be better after just one simple act, and he gets mad. He is still corrrupted and evil.

March 07, 2007 11:15 AM  
Blogger Haley C said...

I think that dorian stabben the picture was because he wanted to get rid of his past. I agree with David, in the fact that he wants to free his concious and be free from everything. He didn't realize that once he stabbed the picture that he would die. He wants to start a new life, free from everything that he has done. I agree with Kurt, i don't think that Dorian ever wanted to change.

March 07, 2007 11:16 AM  
Blogger jessg said...

I agree with Smith. I think that Dorian wants to change because he is sick of worrying about the painting. He doesn't want to have to walk around with the painting over his head anymore.

March 07, 2007 11:16 AM  
Blogger melissa b said...

Dorian wanted to start a new life, and get rid of all sins. That is why he stabbed the painting. Not necessarily to change but forget the past.

March 07, 2007 11:16 AM  
Blogger ZachM said...

But isn't trying to get rid of guilt and sin what we all try to do? Can we really blame Dorian for that? I mean that is the reason people go to confess and apologize for their actions. It is really our guilt that holds us in check.

March 07, 2007 11:16 AM  
Blogger Haley C said...

I think that Sonny makes a great point because in chapter 2 as sonny read "that would be murder" maybe Basil knew all along that the painting had more life and he just never told anyone.

March 07, 2007 11:17 AM  
Blogger CaitlinO said...

I agree with sonny, I think dorian knew he was connected to the painting from the beginning. He says it would be murder if he stabbed the painting. he knew the concequence of him stabbing the painting.

March 07, 2007 11:18 AM  
Blogger alex ma said...

i agree with what jess has said about dorian killing only his evil self. he does want to change and i dont think he fully comprehends that destroying the painting he will destroy himself.

March 07, 2007 11:18 AM  
Blogger Kurt W. said...

I think that Basil knew there was a lot of life in the painting, as well. However, I do think that he told people about it. He told Lord Henry that he put a large part of himself into the painting, and he could never see it sold. I think Basil showed Lord Henry that the painting was significant, he just did not realize that it would take control of Dorian.

March 07, 2007 11:19 AM  
Blogger KatieA said...

he stabbed the painting in the heart to show that he almost thinks the painting is REAL and it needs to be killed like a human.

March 07, 2007 11:19 AM  
Blogger KatieA said...

i also agree with matt that he used the same knife he used on Basil on the painting, it is his weapon of choice. It is almost a theme in the book, I dont think Wilde would make him change his weapon.

March 07, 2007 11:21 AM  
Blogger zverges said...

Why is Lord Henry the only main character that survives through the entire book? What does he do to preserve himself?

March 07, 2007 11:21 AM  
Blogger jeffg said...

Zach, I completely agree with you, depending on the person. I think many people change because their conscience makes them feel guilty, however, some people truly change because of a change of heart.

March 07, 2007 11:22 AM  
Blogger ashleym said...

I agree that Dorian definately had a connection witth the painting which has been apparent the entire novel, I dont think that Dorian knew that if he were to stab the painting he would die. How would he know that? I think he stabbed the painting purely out of reage. Going off of what Smith had said earlier i think that the painting should automattically go back to being beautiful after his "good deed." I don't think there was any premeditation on Corian's part before stabbing the painting.

March 07, 2007 11:22 AM  
Blogger chrisg said...

So going along with what Matt said about the knife killing the artist, and trying to kill the art, is Wilde saying that art is stronger than life, and can remain forever. This is because even after he stabbed the painting, the painting survived and went back to its origianl look.

March 07, 2007 11:22 AM  
Blogger melissa b said...

I agree with Katie that he stabbed the painting in the heart to show the painting is like a living human. No one would stab someone in the leg if they were trying to kill them. Most of the time it is the chest area.

March 07, 2007 11:22 AM  
Blogger CaitlinO said...

I dont think dorian feels guilty, he is just afraid that someone will find out.

March 07, 2007 11:23 AM  
Blogger Haley C said...

I agree with Caitlin. I think that if Dorian felt guilty he would have told someone and repented. He doesn't feel guilty though, he just don't want anyone to know the horrible things that he has done in his lifetime.

March 07, 2007 11:24 AM  
Blogger jessg said...

I think that he didn't burn it first was because he viewed the painting like a human and he felt that he first needed to kill the painting and then dispose of the evidence much like what he did with Basil.

March 07, 2007 11:25 AM  
Blogger ashleym said...

This has bothered me the entire book, and i hate Dorian because of it. Why is Dorian so incapable of any emotion, especially regret or guilt for all of the things that he has done?! I hate that he has no emotion! I hate that he is so selfish!

March 07, 2007 11:26 AM  
Blogger ashleym said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

March 07, 2007 11:26 AM  
Blogger jeffg said...

We are reading way too much into the "symbols" of this book. The knife was used because he killed Basil with it and he knows he can use it again. Also, I don't think there is symbolic significance concerning where he stabbed. It really doesn't matter that much.

March 07, 2007 11:27 AM  
Blogger Kurt W. said...

Dorian is incapable of emotion because all of his emotion manifests itself in the painting. He becomes one-demensional when he decides that his life/body will revolve only around beauty.

March 07, 2007 11:27 AM  
Blogger ZachM said...

Matt I think that the connection between the knife and shallowness is a little bit of a stretch.

March 07, 2007 11:27 AM  
Blogger ashleym said...

Thank you jeff i completely agree... I think that we are trying to wear this book too thin and that we are focusing on stuff that really does not matter that much to this book

March 07, 2007 11:28 AM  
Blogger ZachM said...

I really liked what Levi said about how art is useless. The characters in the novel but WAY to much importance into the painting and eventually it consumes most of them.

March 07, 2007 11:28 AM  
Blogger jeffg said...

Levi makes a great point. And that relates right back to what I had to say. Art is useless so we shouldn't judge it, but if we do obsess and admire it, then we can't be forgiven. Look at Dorian.

March 07, 2007 11:30 AM  
Blogger AmyB said...

i agree with melissa, i think he wanted to kill the past and be free, and become a new changed person. And when he realized that the painting changes everytime he does something bad, but doesnt change when he does something good, he wants the painting to recognize that he was becoming good and doing good things and when the painting didnt change he got angry.

March 07, 2007 11:30 AM  
Blogger ZachM said...

I don't think that we shouldn't look into the authors life. It may just affect the way we see the novel that he didn't intend. We would have probably judged the book another way had we been ignorant of Wilde's past.

March 07, 2007 11:31 AM  
Blogger KatieA said...

I see what the book is saying but i dont think people really obsess over art,and then inturn are not forgiven for it. I just dont see that happening in real life

March 07, 2007 11:32 AM  
Blogger melissa b said...

i agree with Jeff. We are looking way into this book. We are focusing on littel details that really don't matter.

March 07, 2007 11:32 AM  
Blogger AmyB said...

i agree i think that parts of this book is way scewed and i think that at some parts we think way too much into things. Maybe we should not be analyzing this book as much as we have been. Maybe wildes message isnt hidden between the lines.

March 07, 2007 11:32 AM  
Blogger alex ma said...

i think the overall end message is to be yourslef and not to let your physical appearance define who you are

March 07, 2007 11:33 AM  

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