Thursday, December 07, 2006

Hamlet Fishbowl Act 4

175 Comments:

Blogger stephm said...

I think that Ophelia's death is not necassarily a suicide, but just carelessness, it is true that she is insane, but the fact that she is not quite thinking straight, as she normally would.

December 11, 2006 10:45 AM  
Blogger LeAnneC said...

I agreee that Ophelia isn't of sane piece of mind... She has been rejected by Hamlet and on top of the her father fas just died.

December 11, 2006 10:45 AM  
Blogger ashleyg said...

Have we even found out that Ohpelia did in fact committ suicide, wasn't there some thought that she might have been killed.

December 11, 2006 10:46 AM  
Blogger EmilyW said...

I think that Ophelia's death was caused out of insanity. We see her going mad and i think this drives her to kill herself; not being able to think clearly.

December 11, 2006 10:46 AM  
Blogger melissa b said...

I think it is more of madness because she found out the guy she loved killed her father. She was so upset and did not realize she was drowning and she was going to die. I think it was not an act of suicide.

December 11, 2006 10:46 AM  
Blogger ashleym said...

I agree with Claire completely. Ophelia has gone through so much throuhout this novel and it has driven her mad and I think that she was finally pushed over the edge. After the death of her dadI think she feels that there is no reason to live, so she does kill herself

December 11, 2006 10:46 AM  
Blogger AmyB said...

I definitely think that Ophelia killed herself, but not because of grief, i think that she is so insane that she killed her self. I think that it can be tied to her singing while she is infront of the king and queen, she is singing because she is crazy, and i think that definitely relates to her singing when she is drowning. She has gone so insane that she doesnt even care or realize she is drowning she is just singing.

December 11, 2006 10:47 AM  
Blogger CaitlinO said...

I agree with steph, I feel as though Ophelia did not know what was happening. It's kind of like oh, i'm drowning...oh well. If she was not insane she would of put up a fight.

December 11, 2006 10:47 AM  
Blogger stephm said...

Shakespeare's opinion on women: they are week, and not only can't live without men, but don't feel the need to live without them, their lives aren't worth living without men to live them for

December 11, 2006 10:47 AM  
Blogger LeAnneC said...

Negative image of women... I totally agree that all of the women in the book are dependent on men... You have never seen an instance where a woman was strong, especially without the presence of a man...

December 11, 2006 10:47 AM  
Blogger chrisg said...

I think that Ophelia's death is part accident part suicide. She is singing as she drowns, but her singing almost seems to be apart of her madness. She has been through so much with Hamlet, and then with her father being killed, and this would be a way for her to get out of it. So it seems as if this is a piece of accident, madness, and suicide.

December 11, 2006 10:47 AM  
Blogger AmyB said...

I really like sunny's comment on how she is singing while killing herself, is that way of leaving her suicide "note"

December 11, 2006 10:48 AM  
Blogger levik said...

I believe that Ophelia's death was a suicide. The situations she is in with her father's death and Hamlet's false declarations of love have made her mad. The fact that she was singing when she drownded just shows that she truly is crazy. Ophelia couldn't handle her situation any longer and she decides to deal with it by committing suicide.

December 11, 2006 10:48 AM  
Blogger Kurt W. said...

I believe that Ophelia's life has been destroyed to the point that she feels that she cannot live any lnger. All of the important people in her life have been, or are being, destroyed. Hamlet's gone mad, her father has been killed, Laertes is swallowed in his revenge. Her life has been taken from her. So, Ophelia feels that she must take her life.

December 11, 2006 10:48 AM  
Blogger KatieA said...

I think that Ophelia's death was a suicide because she was crazy. She seems insane in the text and in the movies.

December 11, 2006 10:49 AM  
Blogger DaveV said...

Homw come the only "excuse" if you will that everyone has for the actions taken is madness. Hamlet's progress towards killing claudius has commonly been called crazy because of the way he's acting and everyone is saying maybe he is infact insane...i think that crazyness is just a scapegoat for all all the characters actions

December 11, 2006 10:49 AM  
Blogger Amy K said...

I believe she purposely killed herself because she is "acting crazy" when it can be said that she is acting the most sane out of everyone. Her songs make sense and she's speaking truth, so I don't think she's gone crazy and she purposely wants to kill herself because she feels she has no reason to continue without her father and Hamlet.

December 11, 2006 10:49 AM  
Blogger Mark C said...

I think Ophelia has gone insane and you kind of see this link between emotional loss (losing your father) and irrational thought and/or actions

December 11, 2006 10:50 AM  
Blogger melissa b said...

I agree with Amy B, that her singing was because she was crazy. I mean the clip we saw from the film, she was not just singing happily she was crazy singing! And therefore Ophelia does not care or realize she is drowning.

December 11, 2006 10:50 AM  
Blogger ZachM said...

Ophelia I think probably went mad because all the male figures that thought for her in her life were taken away, so she goes insane because she cannot think for herself. I also think that in her insanity, she begins to make sense. Shakespeare seems to blur the feelings of reason and madness. In her madness, Ophelia may finally see clearly.

December 11, 2006 10:50 AM  
Blogger stephm said...

Is Ophelia pregnant? This definitely would add to Ophelia's insanity, her child's father is insane, and no longer wants her, her child's grandfather was killed but her lover, i just think that it's one more thing that she couldn't handle

December 11, 2006 10:50 AM  
Blogger ashleym said...

I think that Ophelia was insane and so therefore committed suicide. Caitlin is right if she was is the right, If Ophelia was in the right state of mind she would have tried to save herself so I think that her madness had driven her to commit suicide.

December 11, 2006 10:50 AM  
Blogger Haley C said...

i think that Ophelia's death may or may not be a suicide, either way she does not have her head on straight. Marie brings up a very interesting point about Ophelia being pregnate. I think that she could both be prgnate but she is also repenting because of all the sins she commited one being having sex before marriage.

December 11, 2006 10:50 AM  
Blogger Mark C said...

What do you guys think about her being pregnant?

December 11, 2006 10:51 AM  
Blogger DaveV said...

maybe ophelia had motives...like maarie said she was pregnant... to kill her self, that would make her "life" easier if she was dead rather than having to live with the stress. Why does everyone think that every person in this story is insane..?

December 11, 2006 10:51 AM  
Blogger CaitlinO said...

wow now that marie said the idea of her being preggers, I believe she actually killed herself. If she had the baby everyone would know that she had sex before marriage and thats not looked at very nicely.

December 11, 2006 10:51 AM  
Blogger EmilyW said...

By learning that she could have been pregnant and that she felt the stress of the relationship with Hamlet i think this drive Ophelia to start acting crazy. There is a lot that has just happened in such a little amount of time and I don't think she knows how to handle all of what has just happened to her.

December 11, 2006 10:51 AM  
Blogger chrisg said...

If Ophelia is pregnant, as Marie says, I feel very sorry for her that all of this happened. I am now feeling for her more now than I did before, and it explains a lot about how much she is struggling. I think this pregnancy is a way of Shakespeare showing how the world viewed women during this time, and how they were weak, and needed men for everything.

December 11, 2006 10:51 AM  
Blogger Scott M said...

I agree with Marie that Ophelia is pregnant. I think that is why she is starting to act crazy. She realizes that she has really messed up and she may think it is the only way out.

December 11, 2006 10:51 AM  
Blogger AmyB said...

I think Marie brought up and excellent point, that is a possibility that i never thought of, but because of her research i can now see that it is a very possible that she could be pregnant, and she could be regreting every sin that she has committed, and now she knows that she is going down, she wants repentance

December 11, 2006 10:51 AM  
Blogger ashleym said...

I completely agree Steph, Do you think that that is what finally drove her over the edge and convinced her to commit suicide or at least if she wasn't before pushed her over the edge of sanity and made her mad?

December 11, 2006 10:51 AM  
Blogger levik said...

I find Marie's point that Ophelia is pregnant very interesting. She was very mad that Hamlet said he would marry her and never did. Her anger could have been started from finding out that she is pregnant.

December 11, 2006 10:52 AM  
Blogger Kurt W. said...

Pregnant? I thought about this back in Act 2, but didn't really act on it. It would make a lot of sense. Going back to what I said earlier, her life is now in shambles. She has no real relations with the father of her child. There is no substitute father figure for this child. She just feels that there is noone left in her life to take care of this kid. Maybe Ophelia takes her life to protect this child from a horrible life because she knows that she cannot give her child a decent life.

December 11, 2006 10:52 AM  
Blogger ashleyg said...

That's crazy that she could be pregnant. It completely makes sense thoug. How funny that none of us caught on. I don't understand why she would committ suicide though and kill herself and the baby. The only reason that I could find would be if she didn't want the baby to be "crazy" like Hamlet.

December 11, 2006 10:52 AM  
Blogger KatieA said...

That is interesting what Marie said about the flower room that was used as an abortionate. It sounds likely and it would just increase her chances of commiting suicide because if she had the baby it would be from someone who doesnt even love her. she would be a single mom and everyone would know she had sex before marriage. Which was not acceptable at that time.

December 11, 2006 10:53 AM  
Blogger Amy K said...

Steph- I agree completely with your comment..her possible pregnancy could be the final thing she could handle before she looses it completely..I don't think it is the MAIN reason she dies (if she did in fact commit suicide)as was mentioned in the coversation

December 11, 2006 10:53 AM  
Blogger ZachM said...

I would also point out the lack of loyalty between Guildenstern and Rosencrantz and Hamlet.

December 11, 2006 10:53 AM  
Blogger ashleym said...

That's probably why she didn't want the baby to live... She didn't want it to end up like its father.

December 11, 2006 10:54 AM  
Blogger Haley C said...

Ashley G, or she was upset about Hamlet not being in her life and killing her father as well. maybe?

December 11, 2006 10:54 AM  
Blogger DaveV said...

oh riiiight kurt...you saw the whole thing coming..kidding, but ya if she was in fact pregnant it just gives her that much more of a reason to die. Her father was just killed by her boyfriend kinda, and he is also playing her for his own good. She is under and enourmous amount of stress and being pregnant would toss her over the edge, suicide would seem like a valid escape to her... shes not insane

December 11, 2006 10:54 AM  
Blogger stephm said...

Hamlet is connected to so many people in the play. All of the men that lose fathers in the play also have men try to take over the fatherly figure. Claudius tries to be a fatherly figure to Hamlet and Laertes, but only to use him for what he truly wants. Claudius also tries to take over as Ophelia's father. Why might Claudius have such an urge to take over as people's fatherly figures?

December 11, 2006 10:55 AM  
Blogger ashleyg said...

In relation to davids comment, I thought that she was on Hamlets side the entire time. Even when he was calling her a prostitute and telling her pretty much to go to a whore house she was civil to him.

December 11, 2006 10:55 AM  
Blogger LeAnneC said...

I agree that the women are portrayed as victims, but do these women bring on the situations that make them a victim?

December 11, 2006 10:55 AM  
Blogger Scott M said...

I don't really understand how she could not have commited suicide because everything around her seemed pretty set up for a nice death even down to what she was wearing. So I think it is pretty clear that she commited suicide.

December 11, 2006 10:57 AM  
Blogger Kurt W. said...

Nice point, Zach. The lack of loyalty seems to be a reoccurring theme throughout Hamlet. No one can be trusted. Is this because of the power involved in the situation, or are these just a lowly people who cannot be trusted? In other words, would these people be so deceitful if the kingdom was not involved?

December 11, 2006 10:57 AM  
Blogger melissa b said...

I agree with Kurt, I can see that Ophelia is pregnant. But since she and Hamlet do not talk, her child will not have a "father figure". And the child does not have a back up because her father is dead and Laertes is gone. She has no family to help her raise the child. She acts in way to protect the child from not haveing a male figure in its life.

December 11, 2006 10:57 AM  
Blogger stephm said...

David- i agree with you but i also disagree, i think that she is partially insane because of the baby, maybe not medically insane, but with being pregnant while not married, and having her boyfriend kill her father, kinda. that would definitely put someone over the edge, maybe like you said, the stress pushed her over the brink of insanity

December 11, 2006 10:57 AM  
Blogger ZachM said...

Wait why is Ophelia getting picked on?? She was denied the man she loved by her father, then he gets her pregnant and then acts insane and like a jerk to her. Sure she isn't a strong character, but it is not her fault. I believe she is one of the few innocents in the play.

December 11, 2006 10:57 AM  
Blogger DaveV said...

A nice death? scott?

December 11, 2006 10:57 AM  
Blogger ashleyg said...

Leanne, I disagree. All the women are told what to do and how to act. Therefore it is not their fault. The actions and words that they are told to do are not their own but that is all they know. From the time they are little they are conducted and played like puppets for the remainder of their lives.

December 11, 2006 10:58 AM  
Blogger Amy K said...

I think women are portrayed as victims, yes, but in response to leanne's comment, they are obviously given/allowed enough power to make decisions that put them into situations to become victims..they ARE viewed as weak, wicked, worthless etc..but they obviously have enough power to get themselves into situations where the blame CAN be placed on them

December 11, 2006 10:58 AM  
Blogger EmilyW said...

Leanne- yes i do think that the women in the play do bring it upon themselves that make them the victim. Ophelia for instance is going through a rough period but she takes it in her hands to deal with the situation by killing herself. At the same time I feel that these women do not have anyone to run to because men look down upon them and are not going to give them the help they need.

December 11, 2006 10:58 AM  
Blogger Mark C said...

Going off of Zach's point about distrust, I think Act Four almost all trust is lost. I mean if you look at Hamlet vs. everyone (except Horatio), Laertes vs. The King at first, Laertes is now going to murder Hamlet, etc.

December 11, 2006 10:58 AM  
Blogger levik said...

With the whole relationships thing, I think that Shakespeare is saying that women are weak. Ophelia can't handle Hamlet's leaving her and Gertrude can't handle the death of old Hamlet, so she remarries. Ophelia reacts by committing suicide. These two actions that Shakespeare puts in the play show that women depend on the men and can't live on their own.
Shakespeare could also be saying that women are selfish; Gertrude remarries for her own good and for selfish reasons.

December 11, 2006 10:58 AM  
Blogger Haley C said...

i think that the women are made out by shakespeare to be really dumb and so lead themselves into some situtions as victims. Although, some of the women just got lucky and they were victims from the start. Like Gertrude, i believe that she put herself in the victim chair eventhough she knew exactly what she was doing remarring claudis only two months after old hamlet was killed.

December 11, 2006 10:59 AM  
Blogger ashleym said...

I agree Scott... Its almost as though everything was completely staged. Its just too prefect.

December 11, 2006 10:59 AM  
Blogger DaveV said...

yea steph but what is the difference between stressed and insane, just because she is pushed over the edge doesnt mean shes crazy

December 11, 2006 10:59 AM  
Blogger KatieA said...

I think it was very sudden of Ophelia to go insane. Hamlets insanity had been a long time coming but it just seemed like Hamlet broke ophelia's heart and she went absolutly crazy.

December 11, 2006 10:59 AM  
Blogger ashleyg said...

PREGUNTA- what was the point of Hamlets speach... I just don't get it

December 11, 2006 10:59 AM  
Blogger stephm said...

Leanne- I agree that the women definitely put themselves in situations that make them weak. They don't argue for what they truly believe. Queen Gertrude knows whats wrong with Hamlet, but doesn't argue with her husband, the women are just to scared to be able to think for themselves, without their husbands, so this could also be a reason for why Ophelia commits suicide

December 11, 2006 10:59 AM  
Blogger EmilyW said...

I agree with Mark. No one has anyone to trust. Everyone is playing each other because they want to know what is going on and how to get back at one another by making alliances. The King and Laertes for instance make a plan together to kill Hamlet in order to get rid of him and the trouble he has caused.

December 11, 2006 11:00 AM  
Blogger CaitlinO said...

Leanne- I think that is Shakespear's point, that women bring it on themselves to be weak, and bring down men.

December 11, 2006 11:00 AM  
Blogger chrisg said...

Another important comparison of the children with their parents killed would be Hamlet, and the other men, versus Ophelia. This explains more into the role and status of women during this time period. The way that all the men act to their father's muder is to try and avenge the death of their father by killing the murderer, but the way that Ophelia reacts is to go crazy and end up killing herself, which as we have stated before in Oedupus, is a cowards way out. This is another portrayal of the weak female.

December 11, 2006 11:00 AM  
Blogger stephm said...

Davie- Totally true, I'm just saying that her attitude toward the queen definitely seemed insane, more so then just a little stressed out if you know what i mean.

December 11, 2006 11:01 AM  
Blogger ZachM said...

That's an interesting difference. Fortinbras is not concerned about the afterlife or what happens later, while Hamlet does. I believe the ghost affects this view in Hamlet though because the ghost represents the afterlife.

December 11, 2006 11:02 AM  
Blogger DaveV said...

ok, steph i can buy that.

December 11, 2006 11:02 AM  
Blogger Kurt W. said...

David wrote:
"just because she is pushed over the edge doesnt mean shes crazy"

I totally agree. Just because she feels that suicide is the best way to get out of the situation she is stuck in, that doesn't mean she is crazy. She may think that she has no way out and is pushed over the edge of reason and driven to suicide, but she's not insane to think that suicide is her best option.

December 11, 2006 11:02 AM  
Blogger melissa b said...

Hamlet should have done his actions quicker and not been beating areound the bush, I mean what Claire said, Laertes is going with it and not over analyzing it. He wants revenge now, not later but as quick as he can.

December 11, 2006 11:02 AM  
Blogger levik said...

I agree with Matt when he says that Hamlet learns a huge lesson when Fortinbras's army comes to Denmark. The army came to accomplish a goal even though that goal does not have a big reward if they accomplish it. Hamlet now realizes that he has failed to take initiative with his plot to kill Claudius. He says that now his thoughts will be bloody, meaning he will finally carry out his plan.

December 11, 2006 11:03 AM  
Blogger DaveV said...

ZACH, you just told me you don't think the ghost is real...how confusing are you?

December 11, 2006 11:03 AM  
Blogger ashleyg said...

Fate vs. Freewill- Could this maybe be why Hamlet paused to kill Claudius? What he giving the whole thing a second thought, and thinking maybe morally it would be wrong?

December 11, 2006 11:03 AM  
Blogger KatieA said...

Does Hamlt idolize his father too much and because of it his father just lets him down by not being a strong ruler and leaving him to fend for himself when he died.

December 11, 2006 11:03 AM  
Blogger AmyB said...

Well katie, she is not only going insane because she has now really realized that hamlet broke her heart, but her father just died, remember how fast hamlet went insane when his father died? Its just a reocurring thing in this play, "your father dies, you go insane" it just seems sort of redundant. Also what is shakespear trying to say, hamlet goes insane and wants to kill himself, but doesn't, and then Ophelia's father dies, and she goes insane and does kill herself, maybe that women are weak and can not handle all the stress????

December 11, 2006 11:03 AM  
Blogger ashleym said...

Katie - I think its like Claire said earlier. Ophelia is way too dependent of her relationships with men especailly with men. They way i see it its like a girl our age dating a guy for like a month, thinks that after a month she is actually in love with him, and all of a sudden he brakes her heart and she is locked inside her room eating chocolate and watcing love movies

December 11, 2006 11:03 AM  
Blogger LeAnneC said...

Caitlin, I don't neecessarily think that the women bring down the men, I think that them ne actually bring down the wpmen through their abuse and use of them to get ahead in life. I think that if anything the women are bringing down themselves and help the men achieve what the want.

December 11, 2006 11:03 AM  
Blogger stephm said...

Hamlet isn't doing as much to avenge his father as Laertes and Fortinbras are. Hamlet is more cautious and definitely not as angry as the two other men. Why might Hamlet be holding back while the other two men aren't?

December 11, 2006 11:04 AM  
Blogger ZachM said...

DAVE I don't think the ghost is real but it's obvious that Hamlet does. He wants to get his father out of purgatory. It's all about perspectives.

December 11, 2006 11:04 AM  
Blogger KatieA said...

I agree with smith!! Hamlet is a NINNY!!!

December 11, 2006 11:05 AM  
Blogger Haley C said...

i think that chris brings up a good point, and it also goes along with Leanne's ponit to. Ophelia is putting herself in the victim's place killing herself after her fathers death and with Hamlet he wants Caludius to be killed wile he is sinning so he will go to hell. But i think that shows some of the differences between men and women and how women see themselves as vitims and men don't they try to get back at people.

December 11, 2006 11:05 AM  
Blogger Scott M said...

We don't know this for sure but I don't think Foretenbras is going through the samething as Hamlet because he still has people on his side unlike Hamlet. He also has the throne which is something that I think Hamlet really does want.

December 11, 2006 11:05 AM  
Blogger DaveV said...

steph- i dont necessarily think that Hamlet is holding back anymore, the way he handled the murdered polonius in the the queens room i think shows that he is finally about to do what he needs to do, that he is past the point of being cautious

December 11, 2006 11:05 AM  
Blogger ashleyg said...

Well Amy, Hamlet didn't go actually insane that fast. For the first part of his insanity that we saw he was pretending to make everyone think he was insane, remember? But yes definately, having your father die is a great change and can cause many problems.

December 11, 2006 11:05 AM  
Blogger EmilyW said...

Steph- I think that Hamlet is doing just as much he is just slower about it. He has this anger and hate for the King he is just more cautious of how he is going to avenge his father's death. I think that Hamlet is holding back because he does not have the help of anyone: Laeretes is getting help from the King. The king came up with the idea of how to kill Hamlet.

December 11, 2006 11:06 AM  
Blogger stephm said...

Zach- i disagree i definitely think that the ghost is real, he just chooses who he wants to see him or not. If he wasn't real how did all of his friends see him before Hamlet even did, in the beginning i mean

December 11, 2006 11:06 AM  
Blogger Amy K said...

I don't think it's a moral decision whether or not Hamlet wants to kill Claudius so much as I truly believe he is a weak character..He stands behind what he beleives, but there's no action behind all of the planning

December 11, 2006 11:06 AM  
Blogger melissa b said...

Amy- i do think that women are portrayed in this play that they are weak and kind of lost after something bad happens. They do not know how to handle it. I mean look at Gertrude her husband dies and she re-marries right after the death. She did not know how to handle the death in the family and tried to fix it, but actually made it worse...

December 11, 2006 11:06 AM  
Blogger CaitlinO said...

Oh yeah I definatley agree but I think that is what shakespear is saying that the women are weak and that they bring down the men.

December 11, 2006 11:06 AM  
Blogger Mark C said...

Here's the thing on Fate vs. Freewill:
Hamlet did start the play with complete inaction, but ended up tyring to kill the King. That ended horribly and the king is still in power.
Fortinbras is avenging......NOTHING. He is claiming a piece of worthless land, and not avenging his father's death

December 11, 2006 11:07 AM  
Blogger KatieA said...

if Hamlet doesn't kill Claudious by the end of the book I am going to be very angry. There is so much suspense, I just want him to do it already he is being such a little girl about it.

December 11, 2006 11:07 AM  
Blogger levik said...

Reacting to Smith, Hamlet doesn't have the courage to avenge his father's death because deep down he knows that killing Claudius will cause his own downfall. Everyone fears for their own life, and I think that is holding Hamlet back.

December 11, 2006 11:07 AM  
Blogger stephm said...

David and Em, thanks for the answer is was just kind of confused about why he was holding back when he idealized his father, but i definitely understand what you both mean and agree with both of you

December 11, 2006 11:07 AM  
Blogger ashleym said...

Scott - Wouldn't that give hamlet more of a motive to avenge his fathers death? I mean fortinbras does have the throne to fall back on and he still has more motivation then Hamlet does.

December 11, 2006 11:08 AM  
Blogger Kurt W. said...

I can agree with those who said that Hamlet is more calculating because he has no one to support him. Fortinbras has most of Norway behind him, and Laertes has Claudius driving him to carryout revenge. Hamlet has no support, no friends, and has a lot to lose. After all, if he doesn't get rid of Claudius somehow, he is forever stuck under Claudius' will.

December 11, 2006 11:08 AM  
Blogger stephm said...

Katie- he does, everyone dies except Horatio, YEAH!!! happy ending right?

December 11, 2006 11:08 AM  
Blogger LeAnneC said...

Caitlin, but the only way that they bring down the men is by helping them with their selffish deeds, so I don't think that their intentions are to bring down the men and I don't think that they directly bring them down.

December 11, 2006 11:08 AM  
Blogger ZachM said...

Steph-I'm writing my paper on this. The murder of Claudius left such a strong imprint on the world around them that the ghost is just the embodiment of those emotions. Gertrude, who has no real personality unless it's the dominant mans, cannot see the ghost.

December 11, 2006 11:08 AM  
Blogger chrisg said...

I think one reason that it was easy for Hamlet to kill Polonious is that he saw himself as a better man than Polonious, and he has trouble killing Claudius because Claudius was the one that killed Hamlet's hero, and it is harder for anyone to go up against something that they think is better than them.

December 11, 2006 11:08 AM  
Blogger DaveV said...

ZACH so are you saying only people that were affected or concerned with the kings death can see him?

December 11, 2006 11:09 AM  
Blogger ZachM said...

I think part of the reason Hamlet killed Polonius so quickly was that he felt as if he was being spied upon, something he was sick of at this point.

December 11, 2006 11:10 AM  
Blogger Amy K said...

Kurt-makes excellent point.Hamlet IS all alone and definitely feels alone in his beliefs about his mother, Claudius, Polonius, and the events that have recently taken place in his life..it's easier to act when you have support behind you..I don't care who you are..that can be applied to life today..it IS easier to act when you have encouragement behind you

December 11, 2006 11:10 AM  
Blogger ashleym said...

Chris - What about Claudius killing his father makes Hamlet think that he is better than him?

December 11, 2006 11:10 AM  
Blogger stephm said...

Zach, well i still disagree because i am stubborn, even if the ghost is an embodyment of emotion, why does Horatio see it, if someone was going to see it is should be Claudius, Gertrude or Hamlet because they are the ones with the most emotional connection to King Hamlet

December 11, 2006 11:11 AM  
Blogger KatieA said...

If Hamlet can be so worked up and just act on instinct and kill polonius why cant he just get all worked up like that and just kill Claudious. Why hasn't he just snapped like that and just stab claudious.

December 11, 2006 11:11 AM  
Blogger ZachM said...

Only the people that are having these conflicted emotion can see the ghost. It's just what they are feeling. It helps them sort through the emotions and feelings. Way to spell by the way.

December 11, 2006 11:11 AM  
Blogger DaveV said...

then why does horatio see the ghost..did horatio have feelings for the king

December 11, 2006 11:12 AM  
Blogger Haley C said...

he hasn't just killed claudius because he wants to kill him when he is sinning so there is no way that he will get into heaven because he will have no time to get forgiven.

December 11, 2006 11:12 AM  
Blogger AmyB said...

From the begining of the play, i have thought that Hamlet was a coward. I have thought that since Hamlet doesn't want to deal with all the stress when his father dies and his mother remaries, he just wants to kill himself, that is cowardly. SO this just proves my point even further, that he has been told by his father himself to kill Claudius and he still doesn't go through with it, it is cowardly.

December 11, 2006 11:13 AM  
Blogger ZachM said...

Of course! Read the first page. The death of Hamlet Sr. affected the whole region.

December 11, 2006 11:13 AM  
Blogger CaitlinO said...

I think Hamlet is waiting to kill Cladius so that he can catch Hamlet in a act of sin so he won't be forgiven for what he's done.

December 11, 2006 11:13 AM  
Blogger LeAnneC said...

Zach, but don't you think that Claudius is having a conflict in emotion with the murder?

December 11, 2006 11:13 AM  
Blogger Scott M said...

If we are saying that there is a chain he that the stronger kill the weaker than I think Hamlet can't kill Claudious because he was able to kill King Hamlet and Hamlet thinks of himself as weaker than his father.

December 11, 2006 11:13 AM  
Blogger stephm said...

Thanks what can i say, i sound it out. lol, no i disagree, the ghost is definitely real, becasue even Hamlet doubts it at first, and the truth of King Hamlet's death comes through the ghost, emotions don't tell past truths, they just mess with people's feelings

December 11, 2006 11:13 AM  
Blogger chrisg said...

Claudius wanted to get rid of Hamlet because he was becoming a threat to him, and he knew that England would do him a favor, which could be possibly the murder of Hamlet.

December 11, 2006 11:13 AM  
Blogger DaveV said...

Touche, but then why cant the queen see him? Is she not part of the "region"

December 11, 2006 11:14 AM  
Blogger levik said...

The reason that Claudius wants to send Hamlet away is out of fear. Claudius knows that Hamlet is angered by his mother's remarraige and his taking of the throne. Claudius is not stupid, and he wants to get Hamlet as far away from him as possible.

December 11, 2006 11:14 AM  
Blogger Kurt W. said...

Mark - He is defininetly avenging his father. This land was ripped from Fortinbras by old Hamlet, and now young Fortinbras is trying to get it back. No matter how little the land, its symbolic. Fortinbras is making a statement, he will act to show his allegiance to his father by getting back what was taking from him.

December 11, 2006 11:14 AM  
Blogger Amy K said...

Why WOULDN'T Claudius and Laertes want Hamlet to die? What would be their motivation to even keep him around?? Looks like they have nothing holding them back to me

December 11, 2006 11:14 AM  
Blogger ashleyg said...

I think the ghost made himself visable to Horatio. Remember the queen could not see the ghost. We talked a little about the ghost showing himself to only those that he felt important. He probably didn't want to make Hamlet think he was crazy seeing his dead father, so he made himself visable to someone other than Hamlet.

December 11, 2006 11:14 AM  
Blogger KatieA said...

There is no way that Claudious loves the queen or Hamlet. He is going to kill Hamlet that is his wifes son! He doesnt care about anyone or anything. he just wants the power.

December 11, 2006 11:15 AM  
Blogger ZachM said...

Everyone is picking on me. Ok Dave the queen can't see him because the queen has no personality of her own. She merely does what the men tell her. Gertrude goes along with Cladius, then Hamlet.

December 11, 2006 11:15 AM  
Blogger DaveV said...

well ashley i agree with that, its zach over here thats causing ghost issues

December 11, 2006 11:15 AM  
Blogger stephm said...

Zach- if Gertrude went along with men, she would tell Hamlet that she sees the ghost too

December 11, 2006 11:16 AM  
Blogger ashleyg said...

I agree with Katie. Claudius has never loved his family. I mean hello he killed his own brother for the throne, and is now going to kill his nephew. What is next, gertrude, his one "true love?"

December 11, 2006 11:16 AM  
Blogger Haley C said...

I agree with Katie. I don't think that Claudius loves the queen. I think that he is with her because he wanted the throne and he didn't care what he had to do to get it.

December 11, 2006 11:16 AM  
Blogger LeAnneC said...

Zach no one is picking on you, we are all helping you with your paper. :)

December 11, 2006 11:16 AM  
Blogger KatieA said...

Ya in both movies the queen is scared of Ophelia she wont even talk to her in the begining. It just shows how much more of a week person the queen is.

December 11, 2006 11:17 AM  
Blogger AmyB said...

I see where matt is coming from when he said that Hamlet is bringing light to the situation. The longer Hamlet is around, the more everyone even Gertrude is seeing Claudius for a killer rather than a hero. So yes of course Claudius wants to send Hamlet away he is showing everyone the truth about Claudius.

December 11, 2006 11:17 AM  
Blogger Scott M said...

Leanne I think that the next person to go crazy will be Claudious because of all the things that have gone on. I think Hamlet has forced it upon him because he has brought it up when maybe Claudious had put it behind himself.

December 11, 2006 11:17 AM  
Blogger ashleym said...

Is Ohpelia's death going to start a trend with the "weak" women is this play, Is Ophelia going to die? Maybe commit suicide?

December 11, 2006 11:17 AM  
Blogger melissa b said...

What if gertrude is lying and really can see the ghost. do you think that is possible?

December 11, 2006 11:17 AM  
Blogger stephm said...

Claudius definitely doesn't love his family, he will use anyone in order to gain power, and stay in power

December 11, 2006 11:18 AM  
Blogger DaveV said...

scott, and everyone, why does claudius have to go crazy, the story is about a succession of craziness.

December 11, 2006 11:18 AM  
Blogger Haley C said...

melissa, why would she lie about that? To make Hamlet seem more crazy then he actually is?

December 11, 2006 11:18 AM  
Blogger ashleyg said...

Ohpelia ashley?

December 11, 2006 11:18 AM  
Blogger DaveV said...

is NOT about, my mistake

December 11, 2006 11:19 AM  
Blogger chrisg said...

Gertrude seems to be the complete stereotypical woman of the time. She is weak, dumb, and a harlet.

December 11, 2006 11:19 AM  
Blogger stephm said...

Melissa- I don't think that there is anyway Gertrude sees the ghost, if she saw him she would be scared, instead she is completly confused by the way hamlet is acting, and who he is talking to

December 11, 2006 11:19 AM  
Blogger ZachM said...

Steph-No she wouldn't. You are taking it too literaly. If you read the passage Hamlet describes the scence to the Queen and the she just says "What shall I do". She thinks this guy might be nuts and she still will do whatever he wants. Ok we are done with the ghost talk.

December 11, 2006 11:19 AM  
Blogger ashleym said...

Melissa I think that it is completely possible, if she sees the ghost then to her maybe it means she is crazy, Why would she want to admit to being crazy?

December 11, 2006 11:19 AM  
Blogger EmilyW said...

I totally agree with Steph. I think that a major reoccuring theme is deceit and lies. Each character goes against one another in order to gain more power. Claudius defiantly represents this because he has no mercy and will go to any lengths to get ahead. He is selfish and doesn't care what happens along the way...eventually it's going to back fire on him.

December 11, 2006 11:19 AM  
Blogger melissa b said...

i actually think Gertrude /Claudius will go crazy. Because of the things that have gone on, Hamlet has foreced on both not just Claudius. I mean Ophelia acting weird and singing Gertrude is scared out of her mind. Knowing her son has killed Polonius, Claudius realizing Hamlet can kill

December 11, 2006 11:20 AM  
Blogger KatieA said...

I agree with Clair, the king doesnt think that the queen will do anything. Which she probably wont, but would that make the play awsome if she just snapped and called claudous out on everything he has done and then just rulled with Hamlet. But that wont happpen she is too much of a little girl too. Mother like son!

December 11, 2006 11:20 AM  
Blogger stephm said...

ok Zach, but seriously you really did think this through, so i will give you a break, good luck on your paper!

December 11, 2006 11:20 AM  
Blogger ashleym said...

My bad... Gertrude!

December 11, 2006 11:21 AM  
Blogger Scott M said...

Dave, I don't think he has to go crazy but i think that most people would start to go crazy after someone else brings up the murder and then he is going to start thinking about what he has done.

December 11, 2006 11:21 AM  
Blogger CaitlinO said...

That would be werid if the queen really can see the ghost, but why would she lie about it and say she can't see it?

December 11, 2006 11:21 AM  
Blogger Kurt W. said...

Melissa - That could be it. She could be lying because she's scared to death of her insane son. I honestly think that the reason that Gerturde cannot see the ghost is because the ghost won't reveal himself to her. Seeing her murdered husband could drive her crazy. That could lead to another suicide, which goes against what the Ghost wants. The Ghost wants to keep as much of his kingdom intact.

December 11, 2006 11:21 AM  
Blogger ashleyg said...

Katie I agree, but first of all...happen doesn't have 3 yes 3 p's. But yeah. Mother like son, they are both NINNY'S!

December 11, 2006 11:22 AM  
Blogger melissa b said...

Haley- to hide things from Hamlet and as i said earlier she could be the next one to become crazy. you know?

December 11, 2006 11:22 AM  
Blogger ZachM said...

I don't think Hamlet wants the responsibility of being King. He talks about Denmark being a prison. I think that he considers royalty and his duty a burden.

December 11, 2006 11:22 AM  
Blogger AmyB said...

I think the queen doesnt want to see the ghost because she is afraid the ghost would look down on her with disapointment. She doesnt want to see the ghost because she knows that everything she did and is doing is wrong and she is ashamed

December 11, 2006 11:22 AM  
Blogger DaveV said...

scott..ya but couldnt he just feel fear for the situation, and that someone knows what he did. Like you said he doesn't have to go cray. I'm just saying i think we are all banking too hard on mental instability

December 11, 2006 11:22 AM  
Blogger stephm said...

Kurt- I completly agree with you that Gertrude doesn't see the Ghost because the ghost doesn't want her to see him, he didn't want Hamlet to deal with her, he only wanted god to judge her

December 11, 2006 11:23 AM  
Blogger chrisg said...

I agree with Claire about Hamlet not even wanting the power of the king. He has never mentioned that he wanted to be in power, and with his characteristic of not acting on anything, he would be a horrible king and nothing would get accomplished. Claudius might even be a better king for everyone because he will make decisions and act on them.

December 11, 2006 11:23 AM  
Blogger Amy K said...

I don't think Hamlet has even thought about the aftermath of his decisions..wouldn't he have said something somewhere about his consequences..good or bad??

December 11, 2006 11:23 AM  
Blogger ashleym said...

Zach - are you saying that is why he is hesitating to kill Claudius?

December 11, 2006 11:23 AM  
Blogger KatieA said...

ashley i cant type as well as you! i dont like personal attacks on the blog. I have shakey hands and sometimes i hit the key more than once.

December 11, 2006 11:24 AM  
Blogger melissa b said...

oh i see Kurt nice point at the end. He does want his kingdom to still be intact but does he want his kingdom to be intact with good or bad people?

December 11, 2006 11:24 AM  
Blogger LeAnneC said...

Don't you think that Gertrude would have freaked out a little bit more if she actually had seen the ghost? I think that she, herself would be going crazy with guilt if she saw the ghost.

December 11, 2006 11:24 AM  
Blogger ZachM said...

Ash-I was just saying that I don't think that is a motive.

December 11, 2006 11:24 AM  
Blogger ashleyg said...

I have an idea. Why doesn't Laertes just kill Hamlet, then turn on Claudius and kill him. Then he can go get with Gertrude, we all know she is up for that! Laertes has no sons so he cannot be killed. it is the perfect idea.

December 11, 2006 11:24 AM  
Blogger EmilyW said...

If he considers it a burden why is he so set on avenging his father death? Is it just because the ghost has asked him to or is there more to it?

December 11, 2006 11:24 AM  
Blogger melissa b said...

katie maybe you should work on your shkey hands it is ok!!

December 11, 2006 11:24 AM  
Blogger Scott M said...

Kurt i also think that she might go crazy thinking of what Hamlet might do because she couldn't she the ghost and doesn't know where Hamlet is getting his ideas of what to do and it seems to me that the next logical person to kill would be his mother.

December 11, 2006 11:24 AM  
Blogger stephm said...

Sorry David our first disagreement, i think the entire play is based on instability of the character's insanities, whether they are really going insane or whether the act of Hamlet's insanity causes his family to go insane while he remains sane, it's all confusing

December 11, 2006 11:25 AM  
Blogger DaveV said...

I agree chris, hamlet doesnt want the throne, basically cause he is a wuss. He has no motivation, and no "guts" or backing for what he wants, or what he has done. Like you said , he would be a miserable king.

December 11, 2006 11:25 AM  
Blogger Amy K said...

I think the play is about Hamlet's character instead of Fortinbra's character for a reason..Shakespeare has a reason for creating Hamlet to be someone that the readers can't look up to like they would Fortinbras

December 11, 2006 11:25 AM  
Blogger levik said...

Like Sonny said, I think that Shakespeare makes Hamlet a character not concerned with power and self-interest. He is only concerned with revenge and getting his father out of purgatory. Shakespeare does this to make the reader or audience sympathize with Hamlet. If he was only power hungry and thought about gaining the throne of Denmark, the audience would not like Hamlet as a character nor care about his downfall.

December 11, 2006 11:26 AM  
Blogger Kurt W. said...

That becomes the question. If the Ghost wants to keep his immediate family in power; then he will keep a crazy-man and a women who stands up for nothing as the king and queen. That is quite the conundrum the Ghost has placed himself in.

December 11, 2006 11:26 AM  
Blogger Scott M said...

I agree with ashley that seems to be the only solution to the problem but maybe Gertrude should die also because every other "bad" person would be dead.

December 11, 2006 11:27 AM  
Blogger LeAnneC said...

What happened to everyone feeling sorry for Hamlet because his father died and his mother married his uncle? I always thought that Hamlet was kind of not ambitious, and then you made me feel bad because his life is in ruins...

December 11, 2006 11:27 AM  
Blogger AmyB said...

Emily-I definitely think there is more to it, i think that Hamlet is in a really bad place right now, i think that he doesnt want to sin, the same reason why he didnt kill himself, but i think that he wants to please his father so much, and so he is in this state of contemplation on to sin or not to sin....ha

December 11, 2006 11:27 AM  
Blogger DaveV said...

ok steph, i can agree that there is instability, but i just dont think that it is neccesarily insanity, i think that insanity is a really extreme. People can be confused, stressed, feel fear and be thrown off and not necessarily insane.

December 11, 2006 11:27 AM  
Blogger jeffg said...

I agree with Levi and Sonny. Hamlet is not self-involved in any way. Perhaps he enjoys seeing other people's downfalls, he only enjoys it because it makes him feel like he is standing up for his father. Everything Hamlet does is based upon something his father wants.

December 14, 2006 10:34 PM  
Blogger jeffg said...

China is right. Insanity is a big extreme, and I also think that it is craziness that is not in reaction to something else that has happened. Instead, I think someone must be diagnosed with insanity because of their own mental state that they were born with and never developed. They are more worried and paranoid about things whether or not they are important. I just think that Hamlet is desperate and crazy because he has lost his father, friends, power, mother, and pretty much anything else that has any value whatsoever. I think that we would all react the same way Hamlet did, but we wouldn't consider ourselves or each other insane.

December 14, 2006 10:37 PM  

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