Hamlet Fishbowl Act 2
posted by annes at 11:28 AM
Monday, November 20, 2006
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78 Comments:
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I think that Hamlet is simply insulting Polonius because he just wants to make someone else appear lower in status than himself.
What is the point in Hamlet bringing up the parallel with his relationship with Ophelia and Hecuba's daughter? Is it to rub it in his face so that Polonius knows Hamlet is sleeping with his daughter? I dont understand the point in Hamlet even bringing it up at all.
When we read the end of Act II and see that Hamlet has the idea of having the situation with his father acted out in front of Claudius and noting his actions, is he possibly testing this method on Polonius in using this reference the the play involving Pyrrhus and the Mobled (being wrapped or muffled in or as if in a hood) Queen?
I think that Hamlet takes a particular liking to this play because it mirrors his own predicament. The main character in the play, Pyrrhus, murders the king to avenge the death of his father, and the play then goes on to address the queen of the tale. Another reason Hamlet likes the play so much is the similarity between Hamlet and Pyrrhus' indecisiveness. On page 110, there is a commentary that states that Pyrrhus is "suspended between his intentions and taking action". Hamlet has been suspended in this same dilemma.
I would definitely say that Hamlet and Ophelia's relationship is sexual because of the references to Ophelia possibly leading Hamlet "astray", etc
I think Hamlet is just using Ophelia, like Steph said I think he is using her and she is just a pawn in his master plan to expose Claudius. He may have had some interest in her before, but now that he has a plan to go all crazy I think he really doesn't care about her. If he actually cared about her he wouldn't be using her because you don't use someone that you love.
I do not think that Hamlet's favorite play is just a coincidence. It is clear that Hamlet is trying to take a shot at Polonius by tying in the whole "I am involved with your daughter" thing. I definitely think that Hamlet and Ophelia are having a sexual relationship. This is shown when Ophelia says that Hamlet has shown and expressed his love for her. When she says this Polonius is disturbed.
I think Hamlet and Ophelia are in a sexual relationship. Because of the references of Ophelia is leading Hamlet with. I think there is something between them, that is turning into a serious relationship.
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I don't think he is so much of a womanizer as he is a user
I think Polonius doesn't know because he is simply trying to catch them in a lie to prove their sexual relationship. I do think that Ophelia and Hamlet are having a sexual relationship, but it is very private.
I think Hamlet and Ophelia's relationship is far advanced. Sonny's comment about the reaction to Laertes' instruction for Ophelia to keep her distance from Hamlet further suggests that their relationship was far beyond a "passing fancy".
if he really loved her he wouldn't be using her as a key player in making everyone think he is crazy. If he loved her why would he want her to think he was crazy. You know? He is only out to improve his status and help himself.
Why would Polonius want to undermine Hamlet and his character? What does he have to gain from such actions, he is only an advisor to the king? Does he only want to be seen as a better person than Hamlet.
Aren't all men womanising, just like adam and eve once they tasted the apples from the forbidin tree the couldn't just let them be. just as hamlet i am assuming if he has been with a women then he could be just using ophelia.
I agree with Amy B that Hamlet is crazy to a point. I think that Hamlet is becoming obsessed with the idea of avenging his father. This idea is taking him over. Going back a week to our argument on whether the Ghost is real or imagined; if the Ghost is imagined, then maybe the death of his father has struck a nerve with Hamlet to the point where he is crazy. He is obsessed with avenging his father, even if his father wasn't even murdered. This idea that is so fimrly planted in his head is driving him crazy.
Does Polonius really love Ophelia since it seems he wants her to have a relationship with Hamlet to better his standing in society?
I agree with Smith in that Polonius is only worried about his own image. He wants Ophelia to stay away from Hamlet because he is acting crazy. If his daughter is in a relationship with a lunatic, Polonius's image would be tarnished.
She has a bit of power through her father. She told her father about the letter and what not, and what did he do? He ran right to the king and queen and told them that he must be mad.
Because Hamlet likes his daughter and Polonius thinks low of Hamlet and does not wan his daughter to end up with Hamlet. He gains of humilating Hamlet or hurting him...
where is the back up for saying that all men are womanizing? I think Hamlet is using Ophelia in this situation but how does that relate to Adam and Eve?
How do Rosencrantz & Guildenstern affect Hamlet's indecision? Do they cause him further distrust those around him? They end up being truthful with him and admit that the King and Queen summoned them, so it might prove to him that he still has loyal friends, but the King and Queen cannot be trusted.
Considering what actions Polonius has taken so far, I believe that he would make up a letter to harm Hamlet. He wants Claudius to look into what Hamlet is up to so that he is not the only one against Hamlet.
Amy I agree, Hamlet is definately using Ophelia but I don't think all the men in this story and in reality are like that.
i agree with amy's comment. Where does it say that?? hmmm
I completely agree with Zach, Polonius is trying to better himself, and give his position more power by downplaying Hamlet's sanity. If the son of the king cannot counsel the current king, then his advisor becomes more powerful. Polonius is also trying to be a decent father, he knows that Hamlet is not a good relationship for his daughter. Whether Hamlet is insane, or he is just using Ophelia. Either way it is really unhealthy for Ophelia.
Question..does it say anywhere in the text that the outcome of the play will be what Hamlet does to Claudius? I know it says that he wants to see Claudius' face when the actors are performing a play about a murder..but is Claudius' reaction going to determine whether Hamlet takes revenge or not??
I think that Hamlet will fall because he is so obsessed with pleasing the ghost and that is his tragic flaw, he seems to go all out with everything.
Going back to whether or not Polonius is making the relationship up, page 87 states, "When I had seen this hot love on the wing (As I perceived it, I must tell you that, Before my daughter told me)." This proves that Polonius is making it up to try and trick them into telling him of their relationship. There is no way he can say that he saw the love, and then she outright told him, because she never did say that she loved Hamlet. Instead, she simply said she had an encounter with him, so for Polonius to assume they are engaged in a sexual relationship is quite extreme.
Why would Hamlet use Ophelia, how does this help his cause, she isn't any closer to his enemy, Claudius, than he himself is. I don't think he is just using her, I don't think he is just trying to get her to love him. He may just be using her for sex, but I don't think there is any other motive, he just needs companionship. The thing is she is also resisting feelings of love for him, especially with lectures from her brother and father. I think they feel the same about each other, only interested in sex, and they don't have feelings for the other.
Steph just brought up the idea of ghosts being angels or demons and is the ghost trying to break down Hamlet. I think the ghost will suceed in breaking Hamlet, I belive that the ball that is roling with hamlets crazyness and want for revenge will destoy him and lead to his fall.
Clarify please. The ghost never actually tells Hamlet to regain the throne, right? He just tells him to not punish his mother. Anyone?
I think it could be possible that Polonius made up the note to kind of put himself into the center of attention. It is a logical possibility, however, I don't think the note is made up. There are more facts to back up that it is real than there are if it where to be made up.
Levi, ya it doesn't say anywhere that the ghost tells Hamlet to take revenge, but it does say not to punish his mother for marrying Claudius
I agree with Dave V. that Hamlet is not worried about the aftermath of his actions. He wants to avenge the murder of his father but he never thinks about what will happen after that.
Hamlet is lost of where he stands in the situation. Right now he just is listening to the ghost. He does not think for himself and does not really care. He is kind od taking the easy way out by just listening to the ghost. He is not thinking for himslef and making his own decisions.
Levi-
The Ghost tells Hamlet that his mother is innocent in the murder of the King. The Ghost only says that Hamlet should take the throne, not kill Claudius.
I agree with kyle when he says that hamlet may be using he for sex but he is not trying to use her to get to claudius. She is no closer to claudius that Hamlet himself is.
Yeah, I agree with China. Hamlet doesn't care if he has a downfall because he doesn't care about his future. Even before the Ghost, he was content with just sitting back and watching. Even with the Ghost, I think that Hamlet doesn't care. In fact, death, in Hamlet's eyes, could even be a blessing. I would even go as far as to say that Hamlet is trying to be two faced with the Ghost by tricking the Ghost into thinking that he will change and become more assertive with everything.
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I agree with amy b. He really only cares about pleasing his dad and getting revenge and exposing Claudius
How could the ghost be a figment of Hamlet's imagination when it started to appear when he wasn't even around. He was somewhere else when it first appeared to the guards, who had to go and tell Hamlet about it. I don't think that it is imagination, I think it is really his father's ghost.
Hamlet is blind to things before him just as Oedipus, but just like LeAnne said, Hamlet in his Soliloquy notes his own cowardice showing that he is still self-aware. This self-awareness may prove to be the difference between Hero and Tragic Hero for Hamlet.
Does he only want to please his dad, or does he see this as an excuse to murder Claudius, whom he already hates?
I agree with claire's comment about Oedipus and Hamlet. Oedipus was more bold and confident. Hamlet is a wimp and not sure of himself. If he keeps having a self esteem how could he be king or a hero?
Responding to Smith, I would be pissed to about my mom getting with my uncle. However, I wouldn't go to the extremities that Hamlet is going to to prove that it was my uncle.
Because Hamlet is so indecisive about his actions and his plans, his downfall will come because of this. Hamlet's situation has been very hard, as Smith said, but that is why he can not handle the current situation. The position that Hamlet is in is way to serious and hard to handle, and killing Claudius is how he chooses to deal with it.
rest of my previous sentence.. to prove that it was my uncle that killed my dad
I agree with Smith's verbal argument to put yourself in Hamlet's place, and it just supports what I was saying about Hamlet being obsessed with avenging his father. The traumatic events throughout Hamlet's life are focusing all of his emotion towards avenging his father. He is becoming obsessed; overwhelmed with this event. Just like Katie said, he is focusing all of the negative activity into this "positive" obsession.
I don't think that Hamlet can honestly do anything but devise plans to get revenge on Claudius. There is only so much he can do in front of a huge crowd of people. He doesn't have the power to do anything in the spotlight with Claudius publicly humiliating him, etc..I don't think anyone would really know how to handle this situation..when you have a certain amount of grief, it is hard to see anything outside of your own pain and it is difficult to rationalize the next steps to take
I know I wouldn't know what to do. It would help if I did see my father and he told me exactly what happened. I would probably try to find out more information before I killed my uncle thought, much like Hamlet seems to be doing.
I king of agree with Marie, Hamlet needs to move one. However, I belive, like a bunch of others here, that Hamlet's tragic flaw is his inability to choose or act. He wants to do something, but he, like Pyrrhus, just can't bring himself to decide
Smith brings up an interesting perspective. When viewing the situation from Hamlet's POV, his actions make more sense. I believe we're focusing too much blame on Hamlet and his actions while disregarding Claudius' actions. So far we've assumed that the Ghost isn't real and that his accusations are Hamlet's imagination. I think that if we accept the Ghost as truly being Old Hamlet, then our view of Hamlet's situation and subsequent actions will become more positive. Hamlet, just like Pyrrhus, is in a very tough situation. To act or not to act, that is the question. I think Hamlet's plan to further confirm Claudius' malefactions is very wise and is the right thing to do in this situation.
Hamlet is still learning what he is suppose to do. He is around the age 18, and 19 he is not sure what to do.
It's easy to say he's being a baby, but honestly look at what he has been through. Would you really act any differently that he is acting? I think it is REALLY easy to rip on him but put yourself in that position
Responding to zach it seemed to me that at first he was going to be very reckless but now with the play he seems to be much more cautious but he may start to be more reckless again.
to answer smiths question. if my father had died and all the events that have happed to hamlet happened to me. I would be confused lost trying to turn to any answer I would be acting crazy just so people won't bother me so I can think and anylise what could have happened to my father and what I can do about it.
I think we are not giving Hamlet any credit. As amy said think about what he has been through. What would you do differently? Do you even know?
I don't think Hamlet's pseudo-insanity will ever overcome him. His anger and thirst for vengeance and justice will anchor him to reality.
Can I just say that I think that Hamlets idea with the play and reading Claudius reactions is very smart. I think that is the best way to discover if he is actually the killer.
Amy K -
You are definitely correct, we are being extremely harsh on Hamlet. I have no idea what I would be doing if I was in Hamlet's place. However, looking at it from the outside like we are doing now, I know what I want Hamlet to do. Not sure if I would take action at all, I just know what I want Hamlet to do.
Is Hamlet really a Tragic Hero? We haven't really seen the traits of a tragic hero (hubris, power, etc.). He has a lack of pride (Anti-hubris) and because of his father's death he has little power. I really don't see Hamlet as a Tragic Hero.
So far Hamlet has just fulfilled the Tragic part of being a Tragic Hero. If Hamlet ends up taking any form of action and doing what he believes is right, then he could attain the status of a Hero.
-Matt W.-
I think that Hamlet is a tragic hero. He lost all of his power when his father died. And he lost all of his pride because he lost his power and his father. He was born into a non royal family, and he didn't start off without confidence. His fall, which is tragic, simply started earlier than every other tragic hero's we have studied.
I agree with Claire because even today people get out of crimes because they pleed that they are "insane" and that is what Hamlet could do if something goes wrong with his plan.
he has dreams but does not want to believe in them...
I agree with the idea of a shadow. unbroken you can't loose it you always have it but you forget about it it gets ost you don't know what to do with is it goes in certain light and shrinks to almost nothing beneath you feet at noon time.
So Hamlet is saying whats the point in having dreams if they can't come true?? Just clarifying his purpose for saying that.
Hamlet realizes that dreams are hard to reach and realize. Smith said that Hamlet's dream is having his father back. He comes back as a ghost to show that his dream is not possible but he can attempt to appease him.
So the ghost is the unattainable part of Hamlet. Since what he wants back is his father and that is who he wants to be like.
Denmark is Hamlet's prison because it physically limits him from returning to school. The kingdom is truly Hamlet's prison because he is being held in this limbo state that we have been discussing. If he acts, then he can become king, but he will be a king with blood on his hands. If he does not act, he will be forever subjected to the supposed murderer Claudius' rule
I agree with kyle that being alive is almmost more of a prison than if he were to be dead. So he is saying that it doesn't matter where you are at to feel that you are in a prison as long as you are alive you are in one.
Our parents always want the best for us, and I think Hamlet's father, the Ghost, is simply trying to help his son during a trying time. Hamlet's father sees that his son is struggling with confidence and has lost all of his power, and so I think that he is simply trying to "pump up" his son so that his son will become confident again and hopefully regain power. His father wants the best for him.
I think that no matter what Hamlet does he lives in a prison. He can never have his father back and if he leaves, he carries that pain with him. If he stays he still re-lives that pain of his father's death daily.
With the whole prison subject, I think that Hamlet believes Denmark is a prison because of Claudius. The country is being ruled by a murderer, signifying corruption and giving a reason to call Denmark a prison.
Hamlet's mother says that the reason that he is mad is because of her marrage. So if she knows that why wouldn't she do something about it to help Hamlet?
I agree with Marie, Shakespeare purposely created the ghost to leave an element of doubt and question into the revelation's veracity. A note or some other tangible item could confirm the message from Old Hamlet. The idea of an apparition leaves an element of mystery and wonder.
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